A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Shurik

    Shurik Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's my favorite part of AFFC.

    I loved her extremely convoluted plan to get rid of all her "enemies", including Maragery, and how it unsurprisingly blew up in her face and got her imprisoned by the same religious nuts she gave power to.
     
  2. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    Cersei's problem is that she thinks she's a genius because she managed to outwit the one man in the kingdom who was dumber than she is...
     
  3. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wish he'd written more chapters in Cersei's voice. Those were brilliant.
     
  4. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Poor Ned...:rommie:
     
  5. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It wasn't even Cersei who outwitted Ned, so she can't even take credit for that. Heck, it was more just luck that things worked out so well in her favor.
     
  6. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There is quite a bit of subtext suggesting that Aerys had his way with Joanna at least once.
     
  7. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    I was not sure about the whole Aunt G conversation. Her words did seem pregnant with subtext. On the face of it, I took it this way - Tyrion is Tywin's true son because of all of Tywin's spawn, only Tyrion has the old man's smarts and cunning.

    At this point in the books, I don't recall any mention of Aerys being obsessed with Joanna. However, that may be in a chapter that I have yet to read, and subsequent POVs may change my mind.

    I have a couple of questions:
    1. When Jamie has that musician play for Edmure, Edmure seems horrified. Am I to assume it was the same musiciain that played out in the hall outside Edmure's bedroom as Cat and Robb were slaughtered?
    2. In Jamie's POV - he thinks that Tyrion betrayed Cat too? How is that so? I don't recall Tyrion being complicit in any betrayl. By the time Jamie and Brienne made it to King's Landing to bring about her plan, Tyrion was already imprisoned and powerless. - Is Jamie thinking of Tyrion marrying Sansa and trapping her in a marriage she did not want? But to be fair to Tyrion, he was the only one protecting her and even Sansa acknowledged that he had saved her from Joff several times.

    To again crow about Cersei's stupidity, how can she think the crown defaulting on their debts is a good thing? Not only is war and possible impending famine going to wreck the land, she is going to dry up liquid currency as well.

    For some reason, I can see Tommen giving his royal mother Hell over Margaery. Perhaps I am wrong but that kid seems mega attached to his wife.
     
  8. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    Yeah, but she doesn't see it that way...
     
  9. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Cersei, like all the Lannister brood, seems to have serious daddy issues. Her driving force during all her plotting and scheming was accompanied by "wouldn't father be proud?", or "I handled that problem just as well if not better than father would have" or other similarly paraphrased notions. Instead of making good decisions for herself and Tommen, she seems to be more motivated by surpassing Tywin's greatness, perceived or otherwise.

    And even throughout ADwD, Tyrion is still haunted by Tywin's ghost and the unknown fate of Tysha - "Where do whores go?"

    It seems to me that Jaime was the first to truly break the chains of his dead father's will and start to write his own personal destiny.
     
  10. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    Well, I am glad the Dorne business is finally going somewhere...maybe.

    Dorne started out with a splash. I really liked Oberyn. However, as the story actually in Dorne progressed, the ripples of my interest began to calm and finally it was a flat lake of boredom. However, at least I now know that Doran was up to something all along, but he appears to be surrounded by idiots.

    I assume now that Dorne intends to ally itself with the last Targeryn?

    I also found this...:guffaw:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think Jaime was trying to do that prior to Tywin's death, but more recently the fact of his father's murder and his own inadvertent involvement in it-- "Tyrion loosed the crossbow, but I loosed Tyrion"-- has changed things somewhat. However you want to interpret Genna's line about Tywin and Tyrion, the interesting thing is that Jaime remembers it a couple times afterward, in a context that suggests he disagrees with and resents Genna's belief that he's not like Tywin. Now he seems to want to replace his father as much as to outgrow him.

    Some of the most explicit stuff about Aerys and Joanna is in A Dance with Dragons. Personally I think it's all a red herring-- I'm not big on theories where everyone is everyone else's secret relative-- but we'll see.
     
  12. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    So - Is Tom O'Sevens at Riverrun at Lady Stoneheart's behest? If he is there to kill, he can get a two for - a Lannister and a Frey.

    It seems that Beric's band are becoming as bad as those they hunt. Lem and the others seemed kindly and somewhat honorable when Arya met them. But seen through Brienne's eyes, they seem little better than murderers. Thoros of Myr appears so melancholy now. They have lost their way it seems.
     
  13. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    I am pretty sure Dany is an idiot.

    I liked her in the first book. I had compassion for her and saw within her the potential for greatness.

    Now I just want to reach into the pages of the book and slap her. She is sitting around piddling in the desert while her "children" run amuck. The chick wastes her time listening to every little matter. There is a reason why the kings of Westeros had a council. Granted I get that she wants to be there for the good, the bad and the ugly. But why can't she sit around all day once a week and then dole out jobs to others? She seems to be as suspicious as her father.

    The only Ts that were/are interesting are dead. I loved old Aemon. I really like reading about Rhaegar and the old kings. However, I loathe the one we are left with. I would not let Dany babysit a dog I liked much less rule Westeros.
     
  14. Icemizer

    Icemizer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^ Its all part of her growth process, which is admittedly verrrrryyyy slow.
     
  15. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    ^^^ Very slow indeed. Which, to be fair, is probably how it would go in "real life" as well. High-born royalty in Europe spend years learning the finer points of diplomacy under many tutors and mentors. She's doing it pretty much on her own (albeit with a small handful of advisers whom she always seems to keep at arm's length) and at her own speed, in anticipation one day of taking all she learned back to Westeros. I applaud her intent - to be the best queen she can be to the people of her homeland, but it is getting admittedly ponderous. I'm in ADwD right now and it's getting to be amusing all the people who are popping out of the woodwork now to marry her.

    And I also got to the part where Barriston Selmy
    tells Dany about her father's rather strong interest in the woman who became Tywin Lannister's wife. I'm starting to seriously wonder if Jaime & Cersei really do come from Targarian blood. It would explain how they seem to always consciously rationalize their own incestuous relationship by saying, "well, the Targarian's did it! Why can't we??" Tyrion may truly be Tywin Lannister's only begotten child. In fact, Tywin may have hated and vilified Tyrion all those years, not because he was a dwarf or caused his mother to die in childbirth, but because he was a constant reminder of a dark stain of secret dishonor on House Lannister that Tywin has been forced to internalize for nigh on 30 years. That shit can seriously eat away at a man's soul and make him very unpleasant to be around after a while. Aunt Genna's conversation with Jaime may very well be one of the biggest bombshell reveals in the entire series of books that has been completely glossed over. Jaime seemed completely unaffected by it (almost unbelievably) after she told him, as he blithely continued on at Riverrun as if it was just another day in the Seven Kingdoms.
     
  16. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hearing petitions is a pretty standard part of Westerosi royal tradition. It was unwise to conquer Meereen in the first place, and more unwise still to stay, but I don't buy that it's stupid of Daenerys to govern the city herself, especially since (some of) the people love her, not her functionaries, and since the pool of possible individuals she might delegate to is limited. That, I think, is a large part of the problem with Daenerys: she doesn't have any knowledgeable advisers she can be guided by and entrust things to. Barristan is noble and loyal, but he's hardly a political genius, and a lifetime in the institution of the Kingsguard has made him too deferential, especially when faced with a highly confident monarch like Daenerys. That's what Tyrion could be good for, if he ever gets to Daenerys and she's able to recognize his skill: he has the intelligence and the cheek necessary to get through to her.

    If Genna had actually being telling Jaime something about his biological parentage, it would be a bombshell. But that's pretty evidently not how she meant it.
     
  17. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    I understand that she is learning to be a real queen, but gods it does not stop it from being a tad tedious. It is probably being exacerbated by my cool feelings toward the character at this point in the books. I don’t hate her per se, but I don’t have a great deal of confidence in her abilities either.

    I think at the heart of it my issue is this – She is going to invade Westeros and bring more bloodshed, because she feels she is the rightful monarch. However, she is also (as far as she knows) the last her of her line. At this point she has no hope of progeny.

    Therefore, she may have the right, but her path seems to lead nowhere in terms of the kingdom. (Plus, every time she rags on Ned, she loses a point in my book. Rhaegar took the man’s sister. Her father strangled Brandon to death and burnt his father to a crisp. Ned would have been dead too if Jon Arryn had not told Aerys to stuff it.)

    Jon's turn as Lord Commander is more interesting, but to be fair, he had Ned pounding lessons of being in charge into his head for years. I think Jon is erring in sending away all his friends. Maeaster Aemon and Sam are gone. He is now sending Pyp and Grenn away. Who is going to watch his back?

    If I had to pick a king I would chose Stannis right now, but his allowing Melisandre to rip all other gods from the people will not end well I think. Plus, in the end I think Stannis’ decision to let the Wildlings beyond the Wall will bite Jon in the butt. The men of the Watch are grumbling…

    If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son, I say he will be TSOIAF. I hope he does not die though. Jon seems doomed to me.
     
  18. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's a far wiser act than abandoning the city to others, which is what she did with Astapor (with pretty terrible results). Her reasons for going to Westeros at this point are largely theorectical, when you get down to it - my ancestors held this, so I should, too. It's something we readers really want because it'd immediately connect Dany's narrative to the rest of the novel series (and Martin's grounded pseudo-English Westeros is a lot better to read about than his Orientalism-laden stereotypes), but that doesn't make it automatically the best course for her. It's a land she has entirely secondhand information about and so far no concrete evidence she'd get any kind of support. Abandoning a bird in hand for two on a bush and all that.

    Pretty much. Most of her problems in ADWD have to do with trusting someone she really shouldn't have.

    Ned Stark is a man she's never met, who she knows about mostly because he's partly responsible for the annihilation of her entire family, the dynastic massacre that took her father, brother, and smashed the skull of her infant nephew. As far as she knows she's got no family left. She doesn't have as informed a perspective on Ned as the reader does but her opinion of him is perfectly reasonable considering what she knows and who she is.

    Stannis is honorable to the point of being impractical. He's Ned Stark only nobody likes him and he's meaner. I love Stannis, but I don't think he's got a chance in hell of being the King.
     
  19. Kelthaz

    Kelthaz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If I had to pick a king, I think I would go with Tommen. His mother no longer controls him like she once did and he has a good wife who will toughen him up and educate him in the ways of politics.
     
  20. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So, if Jon is really a Targarean and he is the Song of Ice and Fire - is the whole story just going to have been one of the Restoration of House Targarean?
     

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