A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    I have finished book 2, and I am moving on to book 3.

    I wonder how I will like a Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons? I love the Two Towers in the Lord of the Rings, and a lot of my friends found the middle book to be boring and tedious.

    The first POV chapter from Jamie is a riot. He is a scoundrel, but I find it hard to hate him. :guffaw:
     
  2. superdeluxe

    superdeluxe Captain Captain

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  3. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's the thing. In GOT, he is an absolute piece of shit who throws a child from a roof and later cold-bloodedly kills Ned's men. But a few chapters told from his POV and you find yourself, despite your best efforts, liking the SOB. The way Martin handles his character development is brilliant.
     
  4. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    As the books wear on, I hate Cersei more and more.

    I was never even a fan of her on the TV show, but the books have given rise to a new level of disgust. My friends that had read the books previous to the show starting, said that they were trying to "soften" her. Well, I thought she was a big enough of a witch on wheels just watching the show, and could not imagine how the show had made her more than just a scheming, shallow woman. Because that is how I saw her. But, the books....Never have I wanted a character to fall so hard in my life. Well maybe William from Pillars of the Earth, but she is gaining on him. (The actress does a great job, BTW.)

    I can understand Cat's motivations more having read the books. The show just made her look totally self absorbed and witless when she let Jamie go. In the books, you can see how her world is unraveling around her, and she fears that Sansa and Robb are her only children left. That being said though, what she did was still wrong in my book. Other people had lost just as much or more as Cat and they were still going on. What she did was a slap in the face to all of the Bannermen and women of House Stark and Riverrun that had lost so much in the war. She was not the only one suffering.

    Ultimately I can sit back and say from the comfort of an armchair - it was a selfish act, but I kept wondering if I would have done the same? In the end, who would not forsake their honor and use what power they have to save their children?

    The wolves are an integral part of the tale in the books. I suppose the cost of CGI precludes using them a lot in the series? (Plus, I imagine dragons are not cheap CGI either.) However, the Stark children's relationship with thier wolves is so touching, really. I guess the show is showcasing that some with Bran and Summer + Jon and Ghost.

    I cannot get over how much more compelling the Night's Watch story is in the books. I am not sure why the TV show feels such a letdown, but they don't seem to be infusing the beyond the Wall story with the same level of urgency as the books.
     
  5. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I finished "Feast for Crows" last week and IMHO, it's the weakest of the series. IIRC, GRRM was originally going to make "Dance with Dragons" book 4 (the one I'm reading now), but he started doing so many flash-backs to tell the story, he wound up making an entire book of flashbacks leading up to it, which became AFfC. Several major POV characters are missing from this book, most notably Tyrian and Danerys, and much of the prose, especially in the beginning dealing with the insipid Iron Born is ponderous and repetitive. I suspect that, by the time we get to season 4, we'll be seeing heavy helpings of activity from both AFfC and ADwD, to make the stories flow better. So far, my favorite book is Storm of Swords, but Dragons is coming in at a close second for me now.

    GRRM better hurry up with Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring before HBO catches up. Knowing how slow he writes, I would be concerned. Clock's-a-ticking...
     
  6. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^
    Well he's already got the chapters he cut from A Dance with Dragons to put into that book, so there's something. Add to this that Storm of Swords will take two seasons (making it possible the combined Feast for Crows/Dance with Dragons will also be at least two seasons), and if it takes him say... three or four years per book of these last two, maybe they'll make it.

    Maybe.

    Honestly one of the many big gambles of this TV adaption was adapting a still running novel series whose author had been taking longer to write each volume, I guess we'll see how that plays out in the end.

    I'm still rooting for Jaime's comeuppance, but he does strike just the right tragic note: Likeable enough for his POVs to have empathy in them, yet nasty enough for whatever horrible fate the books have in store for him to be well deserved.

    As far as the TV show goes, I always felt they basically gave us a fair bit of A Storm of Swords Jaime in the first season - his conversation with Ned about the murder of Ned's father and elder brother IIRC mirrors his internal monologue in that novel a bit.
     
  7. Klaus

    Klaus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm hoping that he did it as a way to motivate himself to write faster, or at least to concentrate solely on this task.
     
  8. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    From what I understand, he's working on several different projects in parallel, including "The World of Ice and Fire" (companion), "The Lands of Ice and Fire" (map book) and "Tales of Dunk and Egg" (novella). He continues to write/consult for the show and he recently finished up assisting the creation of the RPG video game. He's a busy dude.

    If he concentrated entirely on finishing up the main books then I think he could make it. If he keeps sharing cycles with these other projects, though...I dunno...
     
  9. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Although I don't believe he's the only writer in the first two, and the third is actually a compilation of the Dunk and Egg short stories he's released over the years (plus one new short story).
     
  10. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Martin finished his work on the map book in May, and the entire project was complete and delivered in June. His script for season three of the TV show is also done, at least on his end. The only writing projects other than The Winds of Winter he has at the moment are the fourth Dunk and Egg novella (which he hopes to finish by the end of the month), his part of the companion book, and a short story for a Poul Anderson tribute anthology. The rest of his current work is anthology editing: the latest Wild Cards with Melinda Snodgrass, and four theme anthologies (two cross-genre, two retro-SF) with Gardner Dozois.
     
  11. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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  12. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    After so MUCH complaining about how slow season two was, I can't wait until the showrunners do book four and five. Should be fun. :rommie:
     
  13. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    I don't have the book in front of me, but I had a question about something Arya overheard.

    In the books, once she is with the Brotherhood without Banners, she overhears some of them talking to a little old lady. The lady speaks of her dreams.

    Not sure if spoiler tag is necessary, but....

    I believe one of the dreams to be about Cat. The woman mentions seeing a fish dying and then coming back with red eyes.

    The one that intrigued me was: She saw a man standing on a swaying bridge. The man was faceless and had a drowned crow covered in seaweed on his shoulder. - First, I thought the man could be Theon because of the seaweed. But crows are a nickname for men of the Watch. Could have the old woman seen Jon's possible future?
     
  14. Shurik

    Shurik Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think it meant that Balon's banished brother Euron, also named Crow's Eye, is somehow responsible for Balon's death, probably by sending a Faceless Man assassin after him. It's never openly said in the book, but many seem to think this is how Balon died.
     
  15. Ayelbourne

    Ayelbourne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^What he said. The little old lady predicts a lot of things that happen in the book.

    Most likely, she's a greenseer.
     
  16. Klaus

    Klaus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hmm, I assumed it was Melisandre again...
     
  17. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    Thanks for the responses.

    It will be interesting to see how all the dreams/prophecies play out in the books.

    I am at the part in the books where Robb executes Lord Karstark. Things are unraveling for Robb quickly it seems. I personally wanted to reach into the books and smack him. His honor is going to kill him. Plus, him sticking Grey Wind outside to make Jayne's family feel better irked me to no end.

    He and Cat have put him into quite the situation. The Freys have left and are plotting I am sure. The one remaining Karstark is not likely to remain loyal. The Boltons are up to something, and the Iron Born are in the North. (Personal obervation - I don't give a flying fig newton about the Iron Born. They just bore me.)

    Arya's time with the Brotherhood has been interesting, but I can't help but feel that in the end, it won't be important. Unless, somehow Gendry gets put on the Iron Throne.

    Sansa, bless her is just a brood mare. Perhaps that is too harsh, but she always fails to see the bigger picture around her. Granted I think she would make any okay queen because she can run around looking nice and being benevolent. But, the girl never can see the forest for the trees. I hope she wises up some more.

    The Starks just need to marry her off the the one remaining Karstark to bring them back in the fold and start the production line on more Starks/Karstarks.

    So, dragon glass kills the Others. Fascinating.

    Also, Jon using Ghost as a hairy chastity belt just made me giggle. Got to love Ygritte. She is the best thing that has ever happened to to Jon Snow.
     
  18. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I'm of the same opinion of the Iron Born myself. They just strike me as the bullies. Their words even say it for them "we do not sow", meaning we take what we think is ours and piss on the rest. I like the concept of "iron price" vs "gold price", but they take it a bit to extremes.

    The Brotherhood keeps popping up on occasion. They seem to be one of those tiny little lynch-pins around which certain things revolve. They're kind of interesting to watch. They are outlaws, after a fashion, but they strike me more as Robin Hood types, still loyal to a dead king.

    Oh, she will. I won't ruin from you, but she will start getting lessons in the Game of Thrones by an exemplary teacher before long.

    Poor Sansa. She is a bit clueless and, unfortunately, the HBO show doesn't really do her justice. Most of her story is internalized, as she has nobody really to talk to in King's Landing and that's difficult to convey in a visual medium. She's very young, and she's beset on all sides by vipers and sharks who have been manipulating and maneuvering for years. She's clearly out-classed, and she knows it too. She's in pure survival mode. I don't think she's completely naive, but I do think she wants people to think of her as such, purely as a defense mechanism. If you show that you know what you're doing, all of a sudden you become a player and, hence, a threat.

    Eh...well...this one goes a little sideways. You'll see...

    Because Dragons are of fire and the Others are of ice. They are anathema. Wait till you read about obsidian candles. :)

    Yes, she is. But you know, the Men of the Watch cannot keep brides... :whistle:
     
  19. Ayelbourne

    Ayelbourne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Brotherhood is an obvious hommage to the Robin Hood myth. Fighting for the poor, loyal to a dead king. Hell, even the archetypes of the characters are somewhat similar.
    Lem Lemoncloak - Little John
    Thoros of Myr - Friar Tuck
    Tom Sevenstrings - Will Scarlet
     
  20. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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