A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One set of arc words that really stuck with me from the novels is 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.' GRRM loves upending expectations, sure, and the Stark family has been all but massacred.. yet I could see these books ending with Lord Rickon Stark ensconced at Winterfell. Like Tommen, he was introduced as a prefunctory additional brother, and that might be the point of him... or not.

    Really, eh?

    I don't know. The Red Wedding was shocking, but the books never seemed to have much faith in the Young Wolf, who sometimes felt like he was off being the hero and doing interesting things while we're faffing about with Arya. I always suspected Robb would die (Catelyn dying is what surprised me), it was just a matter of where and when.

    The Starks had too limited an interest to really be the ones to 'fix' the realm, anyway. They only wanted to be Kings in the North, and it took all of Westeros to repulse the Others last time around.

    In some ways Ned seems to have had the better idea with Stannis - not that Stannis is an ideal choice, and he seems to be set up for a pretty bad fall (in believing falsely he has the Lightbringer and all that) but of the available Westerosi options for that iron chair at least he's interested in defending the realm as a whole. There is someone I think who is far better suited but between the choices of various Baratheons and the old Stark blood Stannis was decent enough...

    ...I'm still rooting for Daenerys. I always liked her, but really fell in love with her rise in Storm of Swords. I am but a girl and I know little of war...

    That a lot of signs have been pointing to her being the one person who genuinely could fix this mess - and by 'a lot of signs' I do mostly mean dear old Aemon - doesn't hurt. Even granted that GRRM likes gutting our would-be saviours Daenerys has spent a lot of time growing as a ruler and leader of men, and if she can't bring the fire to melt off the ice then I can't see Westeros as anything but doomed...

    ...although I do not consider it beneath GRRM to end the book series with the Others flooding the continent and killing everything in Westeros.

    All this said, we may be rooting for the same thing, given the mad idea the Greyjoys now have that having Daenerys' hand would be the key to getting the Iron Throne and the whole damn kingdom. It'll be interesting to see how Dany deals with Ironborn and Dornish interest in her crown.

    Wait, that was Marillion?

    I guess that must be what they meant.
     
  2. Honestly, I feel like GRRM was basically stalling a lot of storylines until he could finish the war of the 5 kings, so there was a constant new diversion in Arya's wanderings. Same with Dany, whose storyline I quite like but still, oh she left one city, oh look here's another city she has to liberate... oh yeah, and another! It's all (interesting) diversion to kill time.

    Sansa as well kind of just waits around for a book and a half in Kings Landing until she finally gets married to Tyrion and gets whisked off by Dontos.

    This is an area I actually feel the TV show can streamline to the benefit of the story, and why I feel Storm of Swords should be one season, not split into two. Just cut out some of the meandering, and get to the meat of the particular storylines.

    Plus in TV land, I feel 4 seasons without any Lannister comeuppance or real movement in the Dany storyline is just too much. I'd like to see Season 3 end with Joffrey's death, and if possible, Tywin's death as well.
     
  3. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh totally. Between the decision to not have a time jump and the decision for this to not be a trilogy of books, there's more filler-ish material as the series has gone on.

    I really like Samwell, but it's hard for me to remember him doing anything particularly interesting in A Feast For Crows - he went to Braavos and then Oldtown so he could be in a position to do something interesting in a later book, wasn't that basically it?

    Daenerys' plot in book two is particularly underwhelming, compared to the strong arc she had in the first book. And it's true that Daenerys' plot, more than anyone else's, has been building inexorably towards a specific goal, which can be pretty frustrating.
     
  4. Shurik

    Shurik Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, they don't have other options if they want to conquer Westeros. Their power is naval, not land-based (Asha was right in that regard when she spoke during the kingsmoot). So until they have the dragons, all they can do is make everyone's life miserable on western and southern shores of the continent.
    It will be interesting to see what Victarion's journey to the Slaver's Bay will result in. This is one of the things I'm expecting the most in ADWD.
    Yes, it was the same guy that went to the Eyre with Catelyn and co.
    I finished re-reading AFFC yesterday and it's amazing how little happens in the first 2/3 of the book. The most significant things that do happen there are Ironborn and Dorn stuff, the rest is Cercei being paranoid and stupid, Arya adjusting to the new place and Sam feeling sorry for himself and Gilly. Ah, and Brienne wandering around war-torn countryside on meaningless quest. It's basically 500 pages where nothing significant happens.
     
  5. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's always interesting what does and doesn't strike particular readers as filler and/or uninteresting. I just finished rereading A Clash of Kings, and as usual I was more than a little bored by all of the Jon chapters, in which he does nothing but wander around beyond the wall learning surprising little about the wildlings. I liked the Dany chapters better, just because Qarth is a neat milieu, but she accomplishes absolutely nothing there. (Burning down the House of the Undying nets her nothing but prophecies that foreshadow future books.)

    On the other hand, I like Arya's chapters in Clash, and I think they do a good job of setting up her transition from a tomboy to an assassin-in training, as well as showing how war affects ordinary people, something most epic fantasy blithely ignores. The problem is that Martin's laudable commitment to that realism then goes a bit overboard in Storm and Feast, and he spends too much time showing us the same characters leading miserable lives in the riverlands. That's my impression from the last time I read those books, anyway; I may change my mind as I come back to them in the next few weeks.
     
  6. Scout101

    Scout101 Admiral Admiral

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    The parts with Arya would be fine, if they had a little variety. It's just that the same thing keeps happening to her, like 3-4 different times. Good to get out and see the ravaged countryside, but we don't need to spend the whole series just seeing her be a captured serving girl in like 4 castles/camps. Got it. Same with Brianne. After all the build up and story time she gets, she really just shows us more wrecked countryside and downtrodden people. We waste a LOT of time on her, and outside the bit where she interacts with Jaime and humanizes/redeems him a bit, her entire character could be deleted from the book and you really wouldn't miss anything. Someone else could easily do the couple things she has to do, and most of them don't need doing anyway.

    There seem to be several characters that GRRM has decided he needs towards the end of the series, and he's just stalling with them while he cleans up the rest. Tighter editing and he can probably trim at least an entire book out of this thing, and wrap it up. Of course, if i was getting paid by the book, and had a hit series, I probably wouldn't be watching the word count, either... :)
     
  7. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If he wanted to take advantage of being paid by the book, there are easier ways to do it than writing installments so massive they run the risk of being impossible to bind. I don't think Martin is afraid to minimize the importance of characters if he has nothing to write for them; that's why there are only four Bran chapters in Storm and only three chapters each in Feast for Sansa/Alayne and Arya. (When it was one big book, Feast was also going to have only four chapters of Tyrion.) There's clearly some purpose behind Arya's and then Brienne's sojourns in the riverlands. Whether that purpose warrants the pages spent on it... well, like I said, I'd have to get back to you on that once I reread the books.
     
  8. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I must say, depressed and slightly creepy TV Rickon is a lot more interesting than squealing little kid book Rickon.
     
  9. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I get the feeling if you combined all of TV Rickon's appearances you'd get a clip that's under five minutes.
     
  10. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^
    Possibly half that.
     
  11. Shurik

    Shurik Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, in the books he has maybe half a page of total appearances and is completely absent for at least 2 books.
    I also like him more in the show. Every show needs its creepy kid :)
     
  12. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Filming on the second season is due to start on July 25th, so the next few weeks should bring us a lot of casting news for the characters introduced next season. The producers have booked Alan Taylor to direct four episodes of the second saeson, which is great news since Taylor's episodes - "Baelor" and "Fire and Blood" - probably had the best direction of the first season.

    Edit to add: and we have our first casting news for the second season. Natalie Dormer (best known for The Tudors) will play Margaery Tyrell.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  13. Shurik

    Shurik Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Great news about Natalie Dormer, she was great on The Tudors.
    A very beautiful woman.
     
  14. Canadave

    Canadave Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I guess they're bumping up Margaery's age by a bit for the show, since it'd be a bit tough to pass her off as 16.
     
  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    That's pretty consistent with most other characters so far, though.
     
  16. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They've bumped up the ages of all of the kids, though, so that's no surprise. Magaery Tyrell doesn't seem the most demanding role from the novels, but the books spend most of their time working around her, so I wouldn't be surprised if we get some series-original scenes, and I'd bet on one with Loras.

    I'm eagerly awaiting Stannis' casting, personally.
     
  17. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I expect her part to be a lot bigger than in the books. She'll likely be in the thick of things in the Renly/Tyrell alliance right from the start. That'll establish her for the big showdown with Cersei down the road. I'm sure we'll get a lot of new scenes with Jaime as well since they'll need to keep his character more visible in the show than he is in the second book.
     
  18. superdeluxe

    superdeluxe Captain Captain

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    Awesome I love Natalie Dormer!

    She shares that smirk thing with Loras

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Canadave

    Canadave Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, yeah, I have no problem with it, and it makes sense for television. Just observing.
     
  20. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Although child labor laws and other considerations probably motivated the TV change, I think George R. R. Martin has said that if he had the chance to make the child characters in the books a bit older, he would. Especially since the loss of the five-year gap.
     

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