A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As far as superseding Daenerys' claim goes, any child - male or female - of Rhaegar would automatically supersede her.

    That is, she's a daughter of King Aerys, while Rhaegar was the crown prince - he is her brother. In these kind of dynasties, inheritance passes from firstborn son to firstborn son - so a king's grandson would ascend to the throne instead of his secondborn son.

    I think Edric Storm is the only bastard he had by a highborn girl. While he didn't marry her, was was required to recognize the child as his - as opposed to say Gendry and Bara.

    ...which, yeah, is totally something Robb could have done.
     
  2. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think that is being overly critical of Robert, but in any case her family is pretty much a non-factor. Besides that, he had decided to marry her before he even slept with her.
    They're almost exactly the same age. Which would put the characters around 18/19 at the end of Season 2. Robb was conceived during the war, immediately after his parents were married (to cement the Tullys into the rebellion) and born during or right after the war while Ned was still in the south. He came back with the infant Jon shortly after. Of course, since the ages are a little wonky if you try to use the book timeline for the show this may not be entirely accurate for it.
    Absolutely. Which is why him being 15 or 16 when these events happened in the book (with a high-born Westerosi whose castle he had just taken and had been tending to his wounds and was likely unknowingly sent to his bed by her father as a honey trap) makes so much more sense.
    Her visions as described in the book are a bit more obvious (and a lot more abstract), which is probably why they were toned down so much. Martin does a fantastic job seeding the series with clues without ever really raising the question for people to ask. The show has been much less successful with such subtlety. Seems like everything is either completely spelled out or so subtle as to be pointless to anyone who hasn't read the books.
     
  3. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    Man, I want to see Catelyn's reaction when she inevitably finds out that Jon is her husband's nephew as opposed to his bastard son. I rewatched episodes 1 and 2 on live streaming. I'd forgotten how cold she was to Jon. Again, I understand her anger but it's completely misdirected. It should be directed at Ned for his (believed) sins. Pretty presumptuous to bring home your bastard son and expect your wife to raise him. Nothing like a living breathing reminder of your spouse's infidelity to put you in a good mood, but Jon was presented as so meek and polite. It's hard not to judge her a little bit. Not loving him like your own child is one thing, but those looks of hers could kill.
     
  4. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The bigger problem is Robert. If he found out that Jon was a Targ then Jon would die. Either Robert would order Ned to slaughter the baby himself, or more likely he would order Ned to stand down and let one of the Kingsguard to the killing. Ned would have to choose between murdering his nephew (he isn't going to let anyone else swing the blade, his honor demands that either he does it personally or it doesn't get done) or engage in an open rebellion against his best friend the King. That would be a hard choice to make, but he'd probably choose family over honor in the end and the result would be a giant clusterfuck in which he has to put Jon on the iron throne and name himself regent in order to settle the matter. While there are still pro-Targ loyalists in Westeros, particularly most of Dorne, who would throw their lot in with Jon once his parantage has been revealed, the war would be far more close and costly and bloody than Robert's Rebellion, due to Robert's close alliance with the Lannisters who will support him. More importantly, it would mean that Ned would have to kill his best friend. And he doesn't want to do that, either.

    He keeps it a secret from Cat, even though the supposed adultry is a giant sore-spot for her, because one can keep a secret better than two. If she hates him for siring a bastard on some random whore and bringing the kid home, that just sells the cover story all the more. It also means that she won't slip up and accidentally say the wrong thing to the wrong person.


    Croatia.

    Not necessarily. Rhaegar was never the King. Technically, the order of succession would go Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany, then Rhaegar's children. And her biggest supporter would be Dorne, which gives women equal inheritance rights (a big plot point in later books). Of course, when you've got a civil war. In the current situation the rightful ruler is whomever can kick the most ass and kill the most people, no matter who that may be. Dany currently has a massive advantage in that regard due to being the only person on the planet with air power. It's the same reason Aegon was the rightful ruler of Westeros when he was just some upstart foreigner of middling rank from an unimportant island in the middle of the Narrow Sea.

    The snow covering the Iron Throne in a broken keep is less likely to be a metaphore for Jon Snow being the rightful heir and more an accurate vision of one possible future, the one where the White Walkers win at the end of book 6 and book 7 is 1500 pages of a cold wind howling over a desolate lifeless and frozen wasteland.
     
  5. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As I just said, the order would go: Rhaegar, Rhaegar's children, Viserys, Dany. That Rhaegar was never King does not mean his children do not have priority.

    The real issue regarding Jon's Targaryen heritage equaling throne is whether or not he's still considered a bastard. Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne. He would have to have either been somehow also married to Lyanna for a brief time, or Jon would need to be legitimized.
     
  6. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Fair enough.

    I seem to recall mention or suggestion of other highborn girls he 'dishonored', but I suppose that doesn't mean there were necessarily any resulting children.
     
  7. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Any legitimate child. If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child but the two weren't married, Jon is still a bastard, and doesn't automatically have a better claim than Daenerys (although depending on their gender attitudes, some people might still think his claim was stronger).

    Edit: I see this was brought up as I typed.
    It's tricky. Mya Stone's mother was also presumably highborn, or Mya wouldn't have a last name, but the way Mya's birth is described, while it's not explicit either way, doesn't seem to suggest a highborn mother.
    I don't know that "required" is the word; "expected" might be better. But that's a quibble. Anyway, in that case, there was also the fact that Edric Storm's mother was a virgin before Robert seduced her. Whether Talisa is supposed to have been a virgin I leave as an exercise for people who don't find the character inherently ridiculous.

    I haven't watched the episodes since they aired, and I wasn't paying the closest attention to that plotline at the time, so I can't speak to TV Robb's thought processes. But I think that in terms of the books, it's worth considering that he elected not to risk a bastard child in part because he had seen the awkward effects of Jon's upbringing at Winterfell on both Jon and Catelyn, and didn't want to repeat those unfortunate circumstances.
     
  8. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Northern Ireland, Croatia and Iceland for the second season.

    Her hostility towards him is toned down a lot in the show compared to the books. In the first book when Jon says goodbye to the comatose Bran, Catelyn tells Jon, "It should have been you."
     
  9. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I assumed she didn't have a highborn mother. We know that Robert didn't recognize her as his bastard, anyway, since IIRC him being the father is left as likely conjecture.

    That's true. It's the polite thing to do given the circumstances, is what I meant.
     
  10. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    We really don't have that much detail about Weteros's succession rules to be sure, but I concede the point.

    However, that doesn't stop Dany from going 'I have Dragons, your claim is invalid.'
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  11. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    That didn't seem to be the thought process of television Robb to me, that he was acting out of any concern for how Jon was raised and the effects on Ned and Catelyn's marriage. He seems like a man who thinks he's very much in love but is in reality making a kneejerk decision based on his heightened emotional state--which is, I suppose, what the book Robb who's a teenager trying to save the honor of a high born girl he fucked and is in fear of her being pregnant is doing as well. That business of the Westerling girl and a "honey trap" set while she's nursing his wounds sounds like angsty good fun. I may have to read the books. :lol: I'm not sure whether I want Robb's wife to be devious and complicit or on the straight and narrow and genuinely in love with him. The former might be better for creating story.

    So he's supposed to be the same age as Jon, huh? Not buying that at all. Kit Harrington comes across very much as a young, sad, confused bastard kid limited by his life choices but Richard Madden, though I think he's a fine actor, comes across as a poised, older and much more mature individual, especially when he's dealing with Ned's men and his soldiers. Jon seems like a kid while Robb comes across as a man.

    I never thought about the situation with King Robert, but he would demand the death of any remaining Targaereyan child. Excellent point. It makes sense that Ned would keep that secret to save his sister's child, even from his wife to protect the secret to his grave. Robert spoke of sending someone to kill Danearys back in episode 2, while Ned looked thoroughly uncomfortable and rejected the idea.
     
  12. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    At first, so did I. But then why the last name? Common people don't have them, nor do lowborn bastards like Gendry, Bella, and poor little Barra. But I think it's possible the author simply forgot the "rules" in that instance; in the chapter where Mya first appears, her last name is the basis for an explanation of the regional bastard names, and a moment where Catelyn thinks of Jon and feels both angry and guilty.
    Well, that was my point-- if Mya did have a highborn mother, Robert failed to acknowledge a highborn bastard, opening the possibility that doing so was acceptable, if a bit gauche.
     
  13. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And Robert is the King himself, he has a bit more leeway than any other High Lord.
     
  14. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Mya was born before the war so Robert wouldn't have been king, just a lusty highborn teenager with sparkling blue eyes and muscles like a maiden's fantasy.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He also wasn't engaged to marry someone else, which makes it a tad more acceptable than an engaged/married Lord to do the same.

    Edric Storm was after he was married to Cersei, but by then he was King so he could get away with it better.
     
  16. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    I just don't see how a grown man can be contracted to marry by his mother in a patriarchal society like the one presented. Another thing that makes more sense in the books, maybe, since Robb is only supposed to be 17 or 18 at most, and not a grown man like the actor? I can see Catelyn making a contract for Arya (who will certainly object if she's ever reunited with the family) or for Sansa, but not for an adult son. Not a binding contract in which the son had no part of negotiating. Catelyn agreed to the marriage so Frey would let their army cross the bridge to go save Ned, but Ned was murdered right afterwards. So, the contract's still valid? .

    From what I hear, I fervently hope that one particular plot point from the books isn't followed. :thumbdown: I give the writers all sorts of props for killing off a lead character in Ned and following the books. It drives story and it was ballsy as hell but dammit....Robb is Ned now. It sucked losing my favorite character; I don't want Ned 2.0 to die just because his mommy made a marriage contract and he married someone else. What a lame reason for him to die. :scream:

    Robb, Tyrion, Arya, Brandon and Cercei are keepers. Everyone else is negotiable, including Jon....though I know he won't get the axe. :lol:
     
  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    Catelyn didn't make the contract, she just brought Frey's proposal to Robb and Robb agreed to it.
     
  18. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As noted above it's a contract he makes, and if the series let Robb live, the plot would begin to diverge majorly from the books. There's a couple of characters the show's killed off who remain alive in the books - like Rakharo and Irri - but these changes don't majorly shift the entire arc.

    So yeah, while Robb can be handled differently in the series - and has - in the end the guy needs to die.
     
  19. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    Really? I guess I misunderstood the scene. I thought she was telling him that they could use the bridge because she'd made the marriage contract already. I'll have to find the scene and watch it again. It struck me as so odd that she could do that in the type of society presented, when a man could just bring home an illegitimate son conceived during a marriage and expect his wife to help raise him. A tad patriarchal, that.

    Still, I hope the character isn't lost because of some dumb ass marriage contract storyline. Lame. At least let him die a hero. Not because he didn't want to marry some chick the audience has never met. To me there are 3 scenes that pack such an emotional wallop that they embody the very heart and soul of the first 2 seasons:

    1.)Dany staring at her brother after he told her that he'd cut her baby out of her and leave it after taking her with him because he hadn't gotten his crown. The look on her face--she accepts what vile scum Viserys is and is at peace with her decision to let Drogo give him his golden crown. :eek: Emilia Clarke is a lovely, but uneven actress, but that was her best moment.

    2.)Tyrion, his face now scarred from battle, telling Shae that he wants to stay in the city because being smarter and besting his family is the only thing he's good at in life. He's a "monster" now and he fully expects her to leave him....and she doesn't. His sobs of relief as he held on to her for dear life when she said he wasn't paying attention [she was staying]--Dinklage brought it in the moment. Tyrion, forever the smart ass, was laid bare emotionally. Packed a wallop. Dinklage deserved that emmy. Gods, I love his character.

    3.)A wordless Robb Stark being declared King of the North as his men tell him he's the only man before whom they'd bow and pledge their swords. Madden did all his acting with his eyes and body language. His astonishment at the unexpected displays of devotion by his men was riveting. Ned Stark lives on.

    If I were forced to pick one scene to convey the heart of the series, it's the king of the north scene. Now they're going to turn on him because he didn't marry some chick? Don't do it, writers. Please. This isn't the Tudors.

    Awwww....I don't want to hear that. :( That's a bummer. Plenty of viewers who haven't read the books, you know. That'll leave us with Kit Harrington's Jon. Jon's character really tredged into boredom during season 2. Maybe the character is more compelling in the books, but the writers have got a fairly serious problem going on. It's only my opinion, of course, but Kit Harrington is not up to the chore of this storyline. I find myself thinking that another actor would be so much better in the part. Sean Bean and Richard Madden really outshine Kit Harrington in the charisma and acting talent department. Once again, mileage varies.

    Does Tyrion die in the books, too? Then it could be the trifecta of suck. :angryrazz:
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2012
  20. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Conversely, I'd say the Red Wedding is one of the most intense parts of the entire book series. I hope the series follows it fairly closely.

    Robb's his father's son. He never loses a battle and he also loses everything, including his life. As a strategist he's cunning and as a politican he is the right mix of noble and inept that so utterly destroyed his father. It worked on the page, and with Richard Madden I think it'll work as a great tragedy for the show.

    I'm aware. But I'm sure you're also aware that the books is where the series is getting the broad strokes of its narrative. Inevitably it's gonna diverge - this is a TV show - but the broad strokes really need to remain intact, and the Red Wedding as as important a checkpoint as the steps of Baelor.


    I agree with this, which does make me think that Richard Madden as Jon Snow and Kit Harrington as Robb Stark might have been interesting. To me reading the books Robb came off as the least interesting Stark child, Richard Madden and the TV show has actually made me care about the character.

    Kit Harrington was one of the few major casting choices that didn't instantly fit with me, and while I've accepted him at this point he wouldn't be in my top five or ten lists of performances from the show.

    Not yet, but I'm at the point honestly I wouldn't care if he did.
     

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