A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    The instability that led to the War of Five Kings was caused by three things:

    1) The plots of Varys, a loyalist of House Targaryen.
    2) The plots of Petyr Baelish, whose motives are somewhat unclear, beyond personal advancement.
    3) Cersei and Jaime's secret relationship (which both 1 and 2 exploit).

    Joffrey's succession only caused a problem because he was not, in fact, the rightful heir to the throne. Without that, neither Ned nor Stannis would have opposed his taking the throne, it's rather hard to imagine that Renly would have fancied his odds, and Balon Greyjoy's insurrection would almost certainly not have happened (or else, been easily put down like the previous one) in light of the unity of the realm.

    When you think about it that way, Cersei (and Jaime) completely screwed over their House's long-term prospects.
     
  2. DarthPipes

    DarthPipes Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Tyrion thinks that too, in Clash of Kings I believe. All Cersei had to do was have one child by Robert and her family would have had an undisputed claim on the Iron Throne.
     
  3. InklingStar

    InklingStar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    One thing I always wonder about is Littlefinger's plan. He seems to be the Joker of Westeros, sowing discord without any real purpose. He undoubtedly knows that Cersei's children are illegitimate, but he keeps that information to himself. Perhaps he wants to have something to hold over Joffrey later. When Jon Arryn finds out, Littlefinger persuades Lysa to kill him. When Ned Stark finds out, Littlefinger betrays him and lets him die. But then Littlefinger himself has Joffrey assassinated later.

    (I almost posted that in the other thread. This can get confusing. I would have ruined a lot of people's day...)
     
  4. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Littlefinger is, much like Varys, inciting the various great houses to destroy each other while accruing more and more influence for himself. His various dealings are all aimed at drawing factions into the conflict, then weakening/undercutting them.

    While I expect he still has a few cards close to his chest, the plan he details to Sansa at the end of AFFC makes plenty of sense. With the Lannister-Tyrell alliance falling the pieces, Dorne presumably to enter the fray soon along with Aegon, etc., he has at this call the only fresh and unbattered army in all of Westeros (the Vale knights). Marrying Sansa to Harry Hardyng creates a powerful alliance under his control that ideally brings the North (weary as it is), the Riverlands (between Littlefinger's notional lordship and the more important loyalty to House Tully, as represented by Sansa) and the Vale. With that he could rule the whole place (either by becoming king himself or, more likely in my view, using Harry and Sansa as his figureheads, since he seems to prefer smartly staying out of the limelight and holding the real power).

    The question marks in this scheme are Dany (though he seems to be aware that she'll show up eventually, based on one comment) and the Others (which nobody is really taking into account, apart from Stannis and Night Watch).
     
  5. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He can't marry Sansa to Harry without revealing who she really is, and she's still married to Tyrion so that marriage must first be annulled. This was why Littlefinger helped the Tyrells frame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder, to have him executed and free Sansa for future use as a bride. Unfortunately for him, Jaime and Varys screwed that up.

    And I don't see why Sansa trusts him or would be willing to go along with his schemes. She should know that Littlefinger was the one who betrayed Ned in the first place. It won't surprise me if she ends up just sticking a dagger in him when she realizes he's going to kill Sweetrobin (her cousin) to advance Harry.

    Stannis was the first one to figure out that the kids were illegitimate, and he told Jon Arryn so they began investigating Robert's bastards to realize their suspicions. Varys and Littlefinger knew something was up and spied on them, figuring out the secret for themselves.

    LF had Arryn killed for two reasons: 1) So he could use it and Lyssa to frame the Lannisters, then alert whoever the next Hand would be and hopefully start up a War. He'd then weigh his options and choose whoever he thought was the likely winner and demand a reward (hopefully a promotion to High Noble) so he could marry Lyssa and become Regent of the Vale. Everything else was just him adapting to random things as best he could and trying to benefit from them. He's just been really lucky more than anything else.

    2) He had to keep anyone from de-legitimizing Joffrey in a controlled peaceful way, because that would make Stannis the next in line and Stannis would likely outlaw all the stuff LF makes his money from. That is, if Stannis didn't outright just kick him off the Council.
     
  6. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Having a Baratheon for King of the Seven Kingdoms is not really the same as Robb Stark or Balon Greyjoy claiming this title, though. Robert's claim to the throne was that he himself was related to House Targaryen - via his grandmother, if memory serves. It wasn't as strong a claim to the Iron Throne as any of the surviving Targaryen relatives, but it was a claim, which is significantly more then either Jon Arryn or Ned Stark ever had.

    This is why Robb Stark and Balon Greyjoy both go for individual kingship titles, North (plus Trident) and Iron Islands, respectively, because those are ones they can lay claim to from family lineage... while Euron Greyjoy wants a match with Daenerys Targaryen because basically anyone who married her would have an automatic claim on the Iron Throne.
     
  7. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    She doesn't. That's quite clear. She just has no other options but to go along with him.
     
  8. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She is learning from him better than he realizes. Littlefinger has one big flaw, one weakness, and he isn't going to see her coming up that blind spot when she eventually makes her move.
     
  9. superdeluxe

    superdeluxe Captain Captain

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    I can easily see Sansa being a Lady over one of the kingdoms, she is going to be so shrewed and clever
     
  10. Hyperspace05

    Hyperspace05 Commodore Commodore

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  11. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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  12. DarthPipes

    DarthPipes Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've noticed that outside of the people of King's Landing, nobody seems to know that Littlefinger betrayed Ned. Cat certainly didn't know, let alone the North.

    On your last point, Littlefinger pretty much told Ned that Stannis would excuse him from the Small Council so he had a good reason for not helping Ned out. Ned never seemed to consider this and that bit him in the ass.
     
  13. InklingStar

    InklingStar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ned and Stannis both have the same fatal flaw: They do what is right no matter the cost.
     
  14. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know about that. We can infer from the books - and the TV show will likely make plain - that Stannis is shagging Mel. Plus Mel uses their shagging to produce black magic that assassinates Renly. It's not quite clear to what extent Stannis is aware of that plot, but I think he was probably in on it. Stannis is a very rigid man and has a certain code, but he's certainly willing to do unsavory things to further his campaign for the throne.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's the thing about Stannis. He USED to be a guy who was "I must follow the law no matter the cost" but has become the guy who keep compromising his principles for his ambitions.

    Normally, a guy willing to compromise personal beliefs for results wouldn't be such a bad thing but for Stannis it's pretty awful since he doesn't have any real restraints anymore.

    It's a nice subtly for a series that's supposedly dark and cynical: The guys who are amoral (Tywin) and violate their own principles (Stannis) may seem to have the upper hand but eventually it blows up in their faces (Tywin suffering patricide, Stannis' usage of black magic ended up giving the Lannisters a huge advantage).

    The honorable people like Ned may have gotten killed off early on, but they had such an impact on people in their lifetimes DUE to their inherent goodness and honor that their legacies will live on much longer. Ned has been mentioned with fondness in every single volume by a variety of people, whereas most everyone forgot about Robert after he died and I can't imagine anyone will think fondly of Tywin or be inspired by his memory.
     
  16. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure if it's "ambitions" with Stannis, because he's openly stated that he doesn't want to be king; he just is king (which is true, under the Baratheon succession), and his world that means he has to do it. He's strayed into some ethical gray areas in the process and done things he might not have done otherwise (down to, as he said to Davos, pardoning all those lords who joined him after Renly's death even though they were weasels he was strongly inclined to punish otherwise).
     
  17. InklingStar

    InklingStar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ned forsook his honor, and lied to protect his children, right before he died. Had he lived, would he have done it again? Stannis is clearly uncomfortable with the whole red god thing and the shadowbabies. But he does what he thinks he must for the greater good, the rightness of his claim.
     
  18. Hyperspace05

    Hyperspace05 Commodore Commodore

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    Stannis' behavior is easily explained by being a hypocrite - like most lords and kings, he thinks oaths apply the people under him but not himself.

    He was happy to rise up against the Targaryens, but will destroy anyone who challenges his claim.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, Stannis struggled the most with whether to support Robert or Aerys in the Rebellion. That's one of the sore points between Robert and Stannis, because Robert was mad his brother didn't immediately jump to his aid.
     
  20. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, he talks about how he agonized over that and ultimately chose Robert. Which no doubt adds to his annoyance at how poorly Robert rewarded him for all his loyal service.