A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I guess my problem is that it's just too cliche for the story of ASOIAF, and Jon was never all that great a character as anyone else involved in the War away from the Wall.
     
  2. Hyperspace05

    Hyperspace05 Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah I don't think GRRM - after spending so much time deconstructing fantasy cliches - is going to have a cliche ending to the saga.
     
  3. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Who says it will even play into the ending? It may remain a mystery to the characters and only become clear to the readers. Jon is either dead or soon to be Azor Ahai reborn which I suspect will change the landscape a bit.
     
  4. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    If it does become known, it poses interesting challenges to some of the characters. Daenarys, most obviously, has based her whole mission on the belief that she is the rightful heir to the throne - now, obviously she's planning the conquer the place to assert her right, but she feels she's right in doing that. If (somehow) it's proved that she isn't the rightful heir, what does she do?
     
  5. Ayelbourne

    Ayelbourne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, Jon would still be a bastard, since Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married. Thus, he'd have no claim to the throne.

    Also, Dany's claim would be weaker than Aegon's as well, if he is the real deal.
     
  6. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    A lot of the theories assume that they were, since otherwise there wouldn't be any real need for the Kingsguard to be present (since nobody there was in the royal family).
     
  7. Ayelbourne

    Ayelbourne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't see why Rhaegar couldn't issue orders to the Kingsguard, being heir to the throne and all.
     
  8. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Well, maybe, but Ned specifically calls attention to the fact that the Kingsguard's presence at the Tower is odd because there are no members of the royal family present and the presumed heir (Viserys) is elsewhere. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, as many people speculate, there's no reason for them not to have been married, especially with the kid on the way.
     
  9. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There's the question of whether or not the rest of the Kingdoms would accept polygamy as a practice anymore from their Royal Family. In the past, I can see them accepting it because the Targaryens had dragons to force the issue but by the present they were gone. If the 7 Kingdoms all more or less decided that they would not recognize Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna then that's that.
     
  10. PsychoPere

    PsychoPere Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In addition, those three Kingsguard made it very clear to Ned that they were in their proper place. Being at the Tower of Joy could only be their proper place if they were convinced that Viserys was not the heir to the Iron Throne, not to protect a mistress and/or bastard.

     
  11. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That whole sequence was a dream Ned was having, not necessarily what truly happened there.

    I'm still wondering how, if that was over Jon, they were so sure it'd be a boy. If it was a girl, I'm sure they'd all feel like real idiots and think "Aw damn, we should have sent one of us to go to Viserys just in case..."
     
  12. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    It may not have been literal, but it was written by Martin to supply clues; anything there is deliberate, so calling attention to why the Kingsguard are there and not anywhere else (and in particular, with Viserys) has a reason.

    In terms of the sex of the baby, Rhaegar was presumably convinced that it would be "the Prince who was promised", hence, a male; the Kingsguard knights would obey his orders until it became apparent they were wrong (ie, if it was a girl, which it wasn't).
     
  13. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But they really should have been with Aerys the whole time. Rhaegar took Barristan and 2 other KG with him to the Trident where they all died except for Barristan. Then they left Jaime alone with Aerys in KL while the three of them went to the Tower.

    Aerys was still alive, they should've ALL been with him. And if they had already decided to take orders from Rhaegar over Aerys, then they were already all Oathbreakers so their actions no longer reflect the code of the KG.
     
  14. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, there's no real proof anyway. Everyone who knows is dead. If Jon does become king it will be by right I'm trying to save you motherfuckers from a zombie apocalypse, not right of blood.

    There's no guarantee that there's be any Kingdoms levft on Westeros once the White Walkers have made their move, much less a whole seven of them. It's quite possible that the Night's Watch could become the new ruling caste out of necessity rather than any desire for power.
     
  15. PsychoPere

    PsychoPere Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As the Crown Prince, Rhaegar was as entitled to Kingsguard protection as the King himself. So, no, they did not all need to be with Aerys.

    Not all... Lord Howland Reed of Greywater Watch is still alive, and hasn't left his castle since returning from Robert's Rebellion and the Tower of Joy.
     
  16. superdeluxe

    superdeluxe Captain Captain

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  17. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Here's the latest Daily Raven:

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujZzs3uTKlk&feature=player_embedded[/yt]
     
  18. InklingStar

    InklingStar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  19. Klaus

    Klaus Vice Admiral Admiral

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  20. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Er, no, that's not how the Kingsguard works. They're sworn to protect and follow the orders of the entire royal family, and can be sent off to do whatever the royal family orders them to do (obviously the reigning monarch's orders supersede the others, but in the absence of countermands that doesn't matter). There are innumerable examples of that throughout the series. They most commonly stay close to members of the royal family, but have been shown doing other things all the time (Barristan's history includes a number of military expeditions where no members of the royal family are known to have been present, for instance).
    How is that "it"? The rightful Targaryen succession only matters at all inasmuch as the forces that believe themselves sworn to the rightful Targaryen succession and want to conquer Westeros for said right believe it. It's not an actual matter of legality, or something the Seven Kingdoms can contest; they've already gotten rid of the Targaryens, and will be forced to take them back at swordpoint. The question of the succession matters because Dany and other loyalists like Conington believe they're carrying out the legitimate succession, and if they found out that their candidates weren't rightfully king, there's a question of what they would then do. Dany, in particular.