A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Gee, calm down, I didn't insult your mother, I wondered about a possible change they might make to a fictional character in a TV adaptation of a book.

    They've admitted that they've expanded Bronn's role because he's a fan-fave. They've kept Theon onscreen while he's off page in the books (albeit that he's having much the same thing happen to him). They swapped Gendry for Edric Storm and look like they might develop a new sub-plot with Stannis' daughter.

    I just wonder if they might do something similar with The Hound. He's very popular with the audience, in particular with his team-up with Arya. He kinda wanders off page in the books and, his apparent cameo as the gravedigger aside, that's it. I'm just wondering - not thinking, not saying it will happen, just wondering - if the writers of the TV show might worry that audiences will find this a little anticlimactic. And Sandor did say to Arya that he might go across the sea and become a sellsword. So I just wondered - if that's okay with you - if that was setting up a possible storyline. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong and I've nothing particularly invested in this theory but I don't see the harm in speculating.
     
  2. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The descriptions of food. Tyrion watching turtles. Dany's diarrhea.

    There's little enough actual story in both books that they should be able to fit everything into season 5 with room to spare. Particularly since they've gotten a head start on that content this season.
     
  3. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They can't leave out the diarrhoea! CANON VIOLATION!!!
     
  4. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A casting call for season five has been leaked. This is not necessarily an exhaustive list of new characters, so absences don't yet mean any storylines or characters are being dropped, but they're definitely including:

    Doran Martell
    Trystane Martell (aged up to 18; some are speculating he'll be merged in some way with Quentyn)
    Areo Hotah
    Obara, Nymeria, and Tyene Sand
    the High Sparrow
    Septa Unella
    Maggy the Frog(!)
    Lollys Stokeworth
    Yezzan (Tyrion's owner from ADWD)
    the waif from the House of Black and White
     
  5. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My take on the entire series is that those who were born weak rise up and become powerful. Without going into the moral implications of cold blooded murder, in the context of the story this was Tyrion's moment to finally stand up to all the injustices that had been done to him and Shae was part of that.
     
  6. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The endless descriptions of Banners and history!
     
  7. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The difference is that Bronn practicing with Jaime instead of Ilyn Payne (a change that was necessary due to the fact that Wilko Johnson could not come back, what with battling with terminal cancer [he recently announced he was having an operation to remove it) didn't violate the character arc of any of the major characters, including Bronn himself (if you count him as a major character, at least in the show). He's ended up in the exact place where he was at the end of ASOS, and they even introduced Lollys some 2-3 seasons later than one would have expected, in order to have him marry her just as he does in the books.

    What you're suggesting would mean completely rewriting both Sandor's and Arya's (or Jorah's) arcs, basically writing AU fanfiction. The whole point of Arya's storyline in Braavos is that she leaves Sandor and goes there, all alone, to train to be a Faceless Man assassin, which means letting go of everything connected to your former life, forgetting who you are and being "no one", having a different face and identity in every assignment. (Arya still keeps Needle, but hides it.) She feels empty inside, "a hole where her heart is" (something that Maisie has talked about in interviews for season 4 but that we haven't actually seen much of).

    The whole point of Jorah's arc in ADWD is that he desperately tries to get back into Dany's favor by kidnapping Tyrion and hoping Dany would appreciate when he gave a Lannister to her - he is, once again, trying to win a woman at any cost; and, then after dragging Tyrion in chains, he ends up in slavery himself - a huge irony since the crime that made him an exile, and that he has never expressed remorse for, was selling some poor poachers into slavery (in order to get money to buy his wife nice things and try to buy her love). And why on Earth would anyone want to to put another character in Jorah's role (someone who would have no reason to travel to hand Tyrion to Dany, anyway)? What would they do with Jorah then? Has Iain Glen announced that he can't do the show anymore?

    The whole point of Sandor's arc is that he arrives at the moment when he can't do on being what he's been for so long, "The Hound" persona must "die".

    Furthermore, your idea that they have to come up with a storyline that's not in the books in order to keep him on the show depends on the possibility that he actually has no storyline in future books. He doesn't actually wander off the pages - Arya leaves him to die, then we hear a lot about him throughout AFFC while he is believed to be committing horrible crimes (which Rorge is actually committing wearing his helmet) until we learn that "the Hound is dead" and "Sandor Clegane is at rest" in a chapter that's almost entirely devoted to people talking about his life and his fate, with Brienne (and some readers) getting convinced that Sandor is dead, and with a few strong hints that he's really there on the Quiet Isle as a gravedigger. He has barely appeared but he's been talked about a lot, by Brienne, Jaime, the Elder Brother, Cersei... Furthermore, Sansa thinks about him in pretty much every chapter and keeps fantasizing about him; and there's also Bran's dream from AGOT that seems to foreshadow Sandor and Jaime having a big role in the girls' future in opposition to a terrifying giant with nothing but blood inside his helmet. There is too much foreshadowing of him having an important role in the future for him to just remain on the QI as a silent monk. Plus, I think the fact that his horse Stranger (who "shares his former master's nature") is still wild and bites everyone who tries to geld him, is a hint that he won't stay there as a silent monk all his life. I'm sure that we will see him again, but we don't know how changed he will be as a person.

    In the books, he's at the Quiet Isle, at the border of the Riverlands and the Vale. In the show, he and Arya are going to the Vale and he may end up wounded there; I don't know if he will end up in QI or some equivalent of it, but he will be more or less at the same place, or even somewhere inside the Vale. Whatever the show does with the characters along the way, they almost always eventually get them to the same place where they're meant to be. We've seen that with Shae, Bronn, Tyrion, Sansa and Dontos, Bran etc.
     
  8. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I admit defeat! You've argued the point very well, as usual (and I say so in all sincerity, not to be facetious!). I was just a little taken aback by the hostility in your earlier response is all but often tone and the like is lost in posts. Like I say, it wasn't an idea I was particularly invested in, it just occurred to me in light of the comment about going across the sea as sellsword.

    I still have a feeling they'll do something different with Sandor's arc, not least of all in that Rorje and Biter are now dead (which will also have some implications for Brienne IIRC). Of course, it could be that the bite he was given in the last episode will prove troublesome for him...

    Edit - technically a new subject but didn't want to do a double post. Saw this new excerpt from The World of...has gone online. Apologies if it's already been posted here:

    http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/World_of_Ice_and_Fire_Excerpt_The_Rhoynar
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  9. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not surprised that they aren't doing the Saltpants storyline - they probably think it would get too confusing for the audience if there were two or three different people calling themselves "the Hound"! How many Unsullied even call Sandor anything but "the Hound"?

    I'm also not surprised that Brienne didn't meet Rorge - because they had changed his role before, because there are no Bloody Mummers on the show. In the books, she had history with Rorge and Biter because they were among the Bloody Mummers who captured her and Jaime, and Rorge was one of those who threatened to rape her. But she had never met him on the show, so it made more sense for Arya to kill him, since she had history with him.

    I expect Brienne's journey to be shortened - she doesn't need to meet the Bloody Mummers or kill people for the first time - since she's been doing that for a while, she doesn't need to hear about Sandor since the show isn't constricted by the POV structure... I wouldn't be surprised if she meets BwB and LS much sooner than in the book, maybe in the season finale.... The only question is, what are they going to do with her in season 5 then?
     
  10. SiddFinch1

    SiddFinch1 Captain Captain

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    She lied at his trial in an attempt to get him killed and allied herself very closely to his father ...not sure I would call it immoral in that world they live in
     
  11. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If she didn't do any of that, she'd be dead meat.
     
  12. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I imagine that it's safe to assume that the Viper/Mountain duel will end as it does in the books. So how do you guys think the non-book-reading viewership will respond to it?

    Obviously, it's not going to result in the same sort of response as the Red Wedding, given that audiences had 3 seasons to get behind the Starks before seeing their slaughter. But Oberyn has proven to be a popular character, not least of all thanks to Pedro Pascale's charismatic and sexy performance. And in this fight, the man has right on his side, at least as much as anyone in GOT has - not only is he defending an innocent (and fan favourite) man but he's avenging a brutally murdered sister. In traditional adventure literature, he'd be expected to emerge victorious and triumphant. Will audiences still be expecting such an outcome or will they remember Ramsay Snow's words - if you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention?

    I reckon if the RW was 10/10 on the shock scale and Ned's beheading (be-Nedding?) was a 9/10, this ought to be a 7 or 8 anyway.
     
  13. The Grinch Doctor

    The Grinch Doctor Two Hearts Too Small Premium Member

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    I wonder how gruesome the final moment will be. Will we actually see the Mountain crushing Viper's head in or will it cut away at the last second?
     
  14. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know about that. It's common to have a supporting character die to heighten the stakes for one of the main protagonists. How gruesome the death is will vary, but having a death in these circumstances isn't as far afield of traditional adventure writing as some of the other twists in Game of Thrones.
     
  15. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I thought he pulled Oberyn's jaw off?
     
  16. Kelthaz

    Kelthaz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh, after Ned's execution and The Red Wedding, I'm sure the non-book-reading viewership is perfectly accustomed to the non-standard narrative structure of this series.
     
  17. Brolan

    Brolan Commodore Commodore

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    Smashed his face in with his mailed fist if I recall correctly.
     
  18. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thanks, I just had this image in my head of what I mentioned. That said, I think we're going to the the quick cut away with gruesome sound effect.
     
  19. Brolan

    Brolan Commodore Commodore

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    So much for the cut away theory. It couldn't have been more brutal than that.
     
  20. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Eight novels (or more)?

    Martin's American publisher suggests it could happen, and his UK publisher thinks there are too many balls in the air for Martin to juggle them down by the end of seven books.

    Are they floating a trial balloon to see what the reaction might be?