A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    The wildfire was used solely against an invading force that intended to sack the city. War sucks, but under the circumstances it was either Stannis loses a lot of soldiers or lots of people in King's Landing die.

    I mainly object to Tyrion's murder of Shae because she's completely defenseless when he does it, and she holds no power over him at that point. Tywin is slightly more understandable, since Tywin is an ongoing threat, yet his death only further seals Tyrion's fate.
     
  2. Yoda

    Yoda Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Framing what Shae did as just "being mean to him" is a bit disingenuous. Her false testimony sealed his guilty verdict along with a likely death sentence. Sure, she's probably not a threat anymore at that point. If I knew that someone had tried to kill me, my morality sure as hell isn't the thing that would keep me from responding in kind. It would be the risk of failure and thus renewed attempts on my life, and it would be the risk of legal ramifications. Tyrion's gonna be on the lam regardless.

    I'll happily join in with the rest of the cheering immoral viewers when Tyrion does the deed.
     
  3. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Framing someone with the result that you're sentenced to death goes a little bit beyond 'being mean to you.' And we're not dealing with 21st century western civilisation morality. Was what Tyrion did any worse than Ned Stark beheading the nights watch deserter or Robb executing Lord Karstsrk, Dany crucifying the city elders, Jon beheading Janos Slynt, etc?
     
  4. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ned, Robb and Jon were all in their legal rights to do what they did as Lords/Kings/Commanders. And Dany is learning that what she did was maybe not the best thing to do.

    There's also the side-point that Shae was most likely coerced into testifying and saying what she did. I mean, she embarrassed herself when she revealed their sex life just as much as she embarrassed Tyrion. Yet Tyrion never stops to think that maybe she DIDN'T do it out of spite despite knowing Cersei had a hand in everything.
     
  5. sidious618

    sidious618 Admiral Admiral

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    In context of the ASOIAF world I have no problems with Tyrion's murder of Tywin. His murder of Shae is obviously immoral, though.
     
  6. Lapis Exilis

    Lapis Exilis Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Eh, I don't think Shae was coerced. Shae, like Bronn and others (even Tyrion a lot of the time), is a pragmatist. I believe she truly loved, or at least had deep affection for, Tyrion - but when he cut off their affair he not only broke her heart, but also cut their ties so that she needed another sugar daddy - which in the context of the world of ASoIaF is the same as saying she needed to survive. And who can blame her for that? She was taking a big risk all along to bank on Tyrion, which is why I think she truly cared for him. People can condemn Shae but she was doing the same thing as most other people in this world. She took the steps she needed to survive, which meant selling her body, but she also had a personal code of honor. She did not violate that (give up her loyalty to Tyrion) until he broke with her, thus nullifying their agreement. She humiliated him -but he humiliated her first. The only step she took further was to participate in getting him a death sentence, which she probably figured he was headed for anyway and her testimony gave her a chance to slap Tyrion in the face for his rejection, and seal her to Tywin. Though she'd have been a fool to count on him for very long. Which I imagine she knew. Where they all erred was underestimating Tyrion -and isn't that why we all love him?
     
  7. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think that Shae deserved her fate, but Tywin definitely did, for everything he did in general, and for what he did to Tysha and Tyrion specifically - especially in the world of Westeros, where he was extremely unlikely to ever be punished in any other way, or at least removed from power any time soon.
     
  8. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    EW reports that the show is looking to film in Spain (more specifically, Andalusia) for season 5. Dorne would be the obvious guess.
     
  9. Yoda

    Yoda Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh joy. Dorne. That's everyone's favorite.
     
  10. clint g

    clint g Admiral Admiral

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    I really hope they find a way to make that segment of the story interesting. As it stands, I'm bracing for the worst.
     
  11. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Men call me Dark Star, and I am of the night!
     
  12. Brolan

    Brolan Commodore Commodore

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    This is where the story gets confusing for me. With all the meandering plot lines never seeming to get anywhere after this point. Once Tyrion gets done with his evil deeds there is nothing I look forward to.
     
  13. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    This may be a situation where a TV format actually benefits the story. Many book purists dislike the way the show has glossed over what some may conisder more critical story threads than others in an attempt to fit a thick plotline into ten hours per season. Cutting out the chaffe from Feast and Dance and conentrating on the more significant plotlines may reorganize the flotsam in these books to something a bit more coherent. I think they've done a generally fantastic job so far - no reason to think they can't make it work next season.
     
  14. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So would anyone like to predict what gets left out of AFFC & ADWD?
     
  15. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    If there's one big storyline they cut, I bet it'll be the Ironborn stuff.

    They're going to shoot in Spain to stand in for Dorne, so apparently they will do the Dorne storyline.

    The real question is what they're going to do with Dany. They may run out of book material for her this season. Come to think of it, they'll be out of Theon stuff, too. And what about Sansa? I don't think there's much left of her story, either.

    My money is on a couple big revelations at season's end: Catelyn's resurrection as Lady Stoneheart and Stannis' arrival at the Wall.

    So, what storylines do they have at least a season's worth of book material remaining? Tyrion in exile, they could easily get 1-2 seasons out of. Same for Arya in Braavos. The Dorne stuff, maybe a season. Brienne and Pod can be another season. There's definitely enough material for one more season of the Wall, maybe 2 if they stretch it. I don't remember anything very interesting happening in King's Landing in ADWD, but then the show has expanded out Margaery's character substantially so it may be their intention to have next season be the Cersei vs. Margaery power play--FOR TOMMEN'S HEART/SOUL! There's a season's worth of dreadfully boring Ironborn/Kingsmoot hoohah, if they want to use it. I'm not convinced there's enough Bran material to be worth more than occasional visits. Oh, and we have the whole thing with Sam taking Gilly and Aemon to Oldtown. I actually want to see that. Plus Davos at White Harbor.

    So, they definitely have enough book material to pull out another season or two, but for some storylines they're going to have to wing it because they're running out very soon. I am somewhat bothered by this because when the show's writers fill in the blanks, it's very hit and miss.
     
  16. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, I've been thinking that the reason why Balon Greyjoy is still alive in the TV show (so much for the power of king's blood) is so they can avoid all that Kings Moot stuff.

    I assume they'll keep Tyrion's exile but I wonder if they'll keep that female dwarf character, given that she and her brother weren't at the Purple Wedding. Of course, they could bring her in and keep the story about her brother being murdered in place of Tyrion and just avoid the 'small world syndrome' of her having been at Joffrey's wedding.

    I'm wondering if they'll send the Hound to Braavos with Arya to keep him around? Or even team him up with Tyrion in place of Jorah?
     
  17. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm sure they will be really struggling how to make a region/storyine full of hot, scantilly clad, sexually liberated women (and a few men) appealing to the HBO viewers...;)

    :cardie: Why do fans think they will make these kind of absurd, pointless changes that would completely fuck up characters and their entire storyline? I don't even know where to begin with all the reasons why this is a terrible idea. Maybe not the worst and most absurd fan idea of this kind I've seen in this fandom (that honor belongs to "Yara will take the place of Jeyne Poole") but it's the second worst, or shares that place with "Oberyn will survive the duel and play Quentyn's role".

    Not to mention, why? For heaven's sake, why? Why would anyone think that they'll do anything else with Sandor than what the books have, i.e. have him badly wounded (already half done now) and have Arya leave him, going to Braavos to study to be a Faceless Man, while his fate remains ambiguous for the time being. If he has no further role to play in the series (which I don't believe at all), they could even kill him, but since I think he does, he'll just be absent for a while, chilling somewhere, not necessarily at the Quiet Isle (I can see them changing that) but at some other place that's conveniently in/very close to the Vale, until the time comes when his story picks up again.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    God, I hope so. I can't stand the Ironborn.
     
  19. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think it's going to be rather integral to the big plot arc...
     
  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    I'm sure they will be. But for now I find them all completely tedious and a waste of precious pages that could be used elsewhere.