A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. InklingStar

    InklingStar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I thought it was fantastic.

    Just like Arya killed the Tickler in the way he killed others (Is there gold in the village???) she killed Raff in the same way he killed Lommy way back in CoK - "You'll have to carry me!"
     
  2. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Martin recently mentioned on his blog that the original version of the Mercy chapter is very old indeed: it was written about thirteen years ago, when the five-year gap was still in place, and was intended as her first chapter in that version of A Dance with Dragons. I'd kind of suspected as much: Mercy's plan would be more natural for a slightly older girl, and The Bloody Hand seems to have been written pretty darn quickly in this version. But quibbles aside, I like the chapter too.
     
  3. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think this has been posted yet (apologies if it has been):

    [yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=L2p9dRl0yYo&list=PLdyYtz46Nolb1ovYhSOnbIYFktNHfZUkR[/yt]
     
  4. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It held up really well. I did wonder about that myself before going in, particularly as it was being shown on the biggest screen in that cinema, but nothing to worry about. The scenery obviously looked fantastic and there was a great money shot of Dany's legions stretching into the horizon but even the dragons lost nothing by being enlarged.


    For the most part, it's a talky episode with only one action type scene near the start and a very violent fight at the end. One nude scene. Talkiness is good though as there is a fair bit of character interaction, in particular between the various Lannisters. The Red Viper makes a strong immediate impact. There are more references to season 1 and Robert's rebellion than we've had for a while.

    Okay, in over a decade on these BBS, I can never master the spoiler code, especially now I'm on an iPad, so I'm going to write a fairly spoiler-ish review, apologies in advance. Best thing if you want to avoid is just to skip ahead now.

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    The show opens with Tywin Lannister having Ice, Ned's sword, melted down, and made into two new swords. Another kick in the teeth for us Stark fans after the Red Wedding. The final shot before the credits is of him looking rather pleased with the outcome. The Rains of Castamere plays over the scene.

    After the credits, There's a scene with him then presenting Jamie with one of the swords. Jamie says the family has always wanted a sword of valyrian steel and Tywin says that they now have 2. The last sword was of a ridiculous size, he adds, and in answer to Jamie, he says that it came from someone who no longer has need of it. Tywin watches Jamie awkwardly try to sheathe the sword with his left arm and tells him a good swordsman should be able to fight with both arms. Jamie jokes that at least now it will be an even match.

    In dialogue fairly close to the book, as I recall, Tywin tells Jamie to go to Casterly Rock as The Lord of CR 'as I shall never look on it again' but jamie refuses. They argue about Jamie remaining in the Kings Guard and Tywin tells him to go and be a glorified bodyguard if he wants.

    Tyrion, Pod and Bronn are waiting for the Dorne contingent arriving for the wedding. The scene with Pod identifying banner markings is included as is some dialogue about the bad blood between Lannisters and Martells. Bronn remarks that this must by why they sent Tyrion to greet them, as he's expendable. The Dornish party arrive and tell them that Oberon is attending in place of his brother, owing to the latter's ill health. I'm not doing justice to this scene which is very funny, between the Dornish arrogance, Tyrion's discomfiture and Bronn's amusement. We establish that the RV has ridden ahead. Tyrion observes that it should be easy enough to find out where a man notorious for fighting and fucking has gone.

    Sure enough, we see him and his lover in a brothel picking their choices, while Martell also tells the male brothel manager that he wants him to join in to. He then hears someone singing the Rains of Castamere and breaks off his conquest to go find who is doing it. Cue a foolish Lannister swordsman mouthing off to Oberon and immediately regretting it, before Tyrion and Bronn arrive.

    Oberyn asks Bronn "who are you, his hired killer?" Bronn says 'started off like that, now I'm a knight.' 'How did that happen?' Demands Martell. "Must've killed the right people" is the answer.

    Tyrion and Oberyn talk and Tyrion tries to find common ground in that they are both younger brothers. Martell discusses the murder of his sister and her babies by the Mountain and makes it clear that he blames Tywin. He reminds Tyrion that Lannisters are not the only ones who pay their debts.

    Shae tries to seduce Tyrion but he's not having it. One of Cersei's spies sees Shae and appears to note her significance to Tyrion.

    Jamie is having his golden hand fitted by Qyburn. This departs from the book, as I recall, in that the hand is a present here from Cersei and Jamie is unimpressed by it. After Qyburn leaves (Jamie waves amusingly with his new hand) and Cersei talk and he tells her he wants to remain in the kings guard to be with her. However, she says that she has to marry a famous pillow biter (this got a good laugh from a politically incorrect Belfast audience) and says that everything has changed since he left her. Cersei is holding a glass of wine and this scene, to me, shows D&D's weakness as writers; even in desperate housewives, they used to let us see Bree drinking and drinking for quite a few episodes before another character remarked on it. Here, Jamie comments on her drinking - it has to be signposted and they don't seem to have confidence in the audience to work it out. She storms out.

    Jamie is making the security arrangements for the wedding with Joffrey and Meryn Blount and Joffrey is as annoying and arrogant as ever, commenting on Jamie's absence during the war and boasting of his having broken Stannis. He also queries the ability of a one armed man to protect him.

    Away from King's Landing, Dany is playing with Drogon when the other dragons arrive with a sheep carcass. Drogon takes it from them and Dany laughs but as she pets him, Drogon snaps at her. Jorah, who has been watching, warns her that nobody can tame a dragon, not even their mother.

    Dany wants to know where Daario and Grey Worm are and finds them in an endurance contest to impress her. She puts this to and end with threats. The new Daario is very different from the last actor, IMHO, but the character is still trying to impress Dany. Dany sees the bots of a child crucified with arm outstretched and we are told that there are other bodies at one mile intervals. Ser Barristsn wants to take them down but Dany says she will look each one in the face. We get a great money shot of her legions marching.

    Next we see Ygritte and Thormond waiting for the Thenns and Giantsbane admits to hating them. There is some talk of Jon. The Athens arrive suddenly and there is a tense stand off; Ygritte draws her bow on the Magnar. The thenns are all bald and have ornate scarring on their faces (reminiscent of Michael Westmore aliens!). One of them tells the other wildlings that they will get a taste for crow and the scene ends with a shot of a human arm on a spit!

    Jon is dressing in castle black and reflecting on the last time he saw Robb, saying that he always envied Robb, who was better at everything, yet he couldn't dislike him. Sam points out that the same is true of their relationship.

    Jon is then interrogated by Alliser Thorne, Maester Aemon and Janos Slynt about the death of Quorin Halfhand. Thorne and Slynt want to execute him for treason but Aemon believes him. Jon stands up to the other two and is unafraid to give them some cheek. Aemon remarks that he is able to know when people are lying to him as a result of having grown up in kings landing.

    Tyrion tries to console a distraught Sansa but to no avail. He first has to get a reluctant Shae offside. She tells him she goes to the godswood not to pray but so she can be alone.

    Margery and her grandmother are making wedding preparations when Briene arrives; the queen of thorns' reaction to her is very funny. Briene explains how Renly died.

    Briene next is seen reminding Jamie of his vow to Catelyn. Jamie here is slower to keep his vows than in the book as I recall but the banter between Brienne and him is as funny as ever. They watch Sansa and we cut to her POV and she is then followed through the godswood. It turns out to be Ser Donson, who promises to help her.

    The final scene is with the Hound and Arya and they kept the best for last. The dialogue is not for the easily offended and the Hound's description of people who name their swords brought the house down. Arya recognises Polliver at an inn and they go in. Polliver and co are molesting a barmaid. The following scene between the group is both tense and hilarious at the same time and Rory McCann is brilliant. Inevitably, it leads to bloodshed in a very brutal scene. You even fear for the Hound. Arya kills Polliver but not before she reminds him of how he killed Lommy. She kills him in the same way and retrieves Needle.

    The final scene has Arya and Clegane riding away. Arya now has Needle back. Perhaps this was the second sword of the title all along. There is a sense that maybe the Starks are coming back.

    Okay, hope that was okay, sorry for the spelling, iPad predictive text and Westeros names do not a good match make. Enjoy! Got to dash to the gym now!
     
  5. Scout101

    Scout101 Admiral Admiral

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    ^Yeah, no chance. Not even if Martin was actually able to write to a schedule. Imagine they halted production, and it took him 6-7 years like the last time! :lol:
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  6. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    What does he promise, exactly? Several accounts of the first episode have stated that he doesn't say anything about escape or help, he just gives her the necklace (hairnet substitute) under the pretense of it being an old family heirloom.
     
  7. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe I'm confuddling the scene with the book. He certainly tells her he is grateful for her intervention, which saved his life and yes I think he gives her the hairnet. There certainly is no specific mention of escape but IIRC he says something along the lines of wanting to help her or be there for her. Hard just to recall all the dialogue right now!
     
  8. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I figured out who the POV character was the moment Martin posted on his blog what the title would be. The titles are always refer to the character's identity, and there's only one character I could see referring to herself as Mercy, if it's a name or nickname of her newest persona.

    Great chapter, the best so far out of the excerpts from TWOW. It was incredibly meta.

    The latter seems more plausible to me in this version. It's a popular theatre, they're going to want to stage a play about the most recent scandal and a recently disgraced politician. Strike while the iron is hot. Who in Braavos was going to care about Tyrion and his alleged crimes five years later? Steve Jobs died in late 2011, and less than two years later there's already a released movie about him, and another one in production, and it takes a lot longer to shot a movie than to stage a play.

    Not to mention that, in the current circumstances at the end of ADWD, I would find it really hard to believe that the Lannisters would retain the Iron Throne for five more years. GRRM's original plan was really bad. I can't believe he actually thought he could stall all other storylines just in order to have the Stark kids grow up. Civil war doesn't just stop for five years.


    In their latest Vanity Fair interview, they've said that there will be seven or eight seasons.

    Eight seems more likely to me; seven would probably make the show too rushed. AFFC/ADWD have more than enough material for many of the characters (with the probable addition of the Battle of Fire and/or Battle of Ice from TWOW, probably the former rather than the latter) but if either TWOW or ADOS is a big book like ASOS - and I imagine they really have to be, in order to resolve all the storylines, many of which have just been set up - two seasons would probably be too short to cover both of them. I'm re-reading AGOT, and it's funny to be reminded just how simple the story was back then, and how few storylines and big events there were in it, which is why it fit easily into one season.
     
  9. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Eight is possible, but seven sounds more likely from what they've said to James Hibberd at EW (bear in mind Vanity Fair has a long lead time to print, so those interviews aren't necessarily their most recent ones). From EW:

    I think the show will end well before the publication of ADOS unless Martin miraculously increases his writing speed. When the final season is scripted and filmed they'll likely only have Martin's outline of where things are going and a small number of chapters actually written to work from. Seven seasons can suffice for the show if they cut a lot of the telescoping out that Martin introduced in Feast and Dance and keep things more focused and streamlined, which I suspect is exactly what they'll do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  10. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, Elio Garcia of Westeros.org has confirmed that the EW interviews are older than those in Vanity Fair. The former date from last fall (Hibberd visited Croatia during filming, but held off the coverage to a point when the show would be in the spotlight), while the latter are from January-February. (Vanity Fair spoke to Benioff and Weiss during post-production; the Martin interview for the same feature was February).

    Elio thinks this may indicate shifting thinking in recent months; I feel like that's a lot of weight to put on a few isolated word choices. But then I've always thought seven was more likely, even when they were mostly saying eight, so that may be influencing my judgment.
     
  11. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^
    Thanks for the information. I thought the EW stuff was more recent. In that event, I think they're leaving the door slightly open for eight seasons, but seven is still more likely.
     
  12. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Another article where the number of seasons is mentioned: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Inside-Game-Thrones-1079895.aspx
    It's an article about Jon in season 4 and most of the quotes are by Kit Harington, but Benioff is also quoted:

     
  13. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Last night's SNL poked fun at George R. R. Martin via an impression by Bobby Moynihan:
    link with video
     
  14. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The season four premiere set a new ratings high for Game of Thrones with 6.6 million viewers for its initial airing. That's the most watched episode of any HBO show since the finale of The Sopranos. The season three premiere of Game of Thrones drew 4.366 million viewers on its first airing. The previous ratings high was 5.5 million viewers for the sixth episode of the fourth season.
     
  15. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I hope they're planning to do at least a little more with Brienne and Sansa being in the city at the same time. "I must go on an epic quest to find this girl I gave up on after a brief conversation a few weeks ago" is a tough sell.

    That final scene suggests why Martin released the Mercy chapter when he did. Elio Garcia has revealed that that was one of the completed chapters Martin showed Benioff and Weiss, and they lifted that part of the scene from it.

    A pretty solid opener generally.
     
  16. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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  17. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Great to see the two-season renewal.
     
  18. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Emilia Clarke is featured on the cover of Hero Complex. There's an interview with her here.
     
  19. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Strictly speaking, Brienne didn't give up. Jaime gave up. Brienne seems to still be trying to get Jaime to help.
     
  20. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She had one conversation in which she was pretty easily sidetracked. That's not trying very hard to fulfill a sacred vow... unless they show us more, or at least imply that more happened.