A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Location:
    Maine
    Effective leaders tend not to be stabbed to death by their own subordinates.

    Jon had some good ideas about how to adjust the Watch's priorities, but had no sense of how to justify those ideas to those who disagreed, instead relying on the authority of his position to force things through. But even in a feudal society, you're not going to get far without cultivating personal as well as institutional loyalty. (Tyrion made the same mistake in A Clash of Kings.) He took the wrong lesson from Aemon's advice to "Kill the boy," thinking it was a command to isolate himself and act like an utter hardass. As readers, we know that Jon genuinely cares about the Watch and is (in most respects) doing his best to maintain its mission in difficult times. But someone like Bowen Marsh isn't reading Jon's POV chapters, so all he can see is a Lord Commander who rode with the wildlings very recently, and is now as likely to get advice from them as from his own men. Since Marsh doesn't know he's in an epic fantasy series, he can't be sure there'll be a big confrontation with the Others that will justify treating the wildlings as allies.

    And from the beginning, Jon had trouble sticking to the part of his oath that involved renouncing who he had been for the good of the Watch. Fandom cheered when he beheaded Janos Slynt, but while that was technically justifiable in terms of Slynt's disobedience, it's hard to escape the sense that it was also an act of revenge. Especially when he then allows Melisandre and Mance to attempt a rescue of "Arya," and announces plans to lead a wildling army against the Warden of the North. It's hard not to sympathize with Jon there, given what a monster Ramsay is, but at the same time, according to the standards of the society it's flagrant oathbreaking.
     
  2. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    And you, Brutus?
     
  3. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Location:
    Maine
    I don't think you can claim Julius Caesar was an effective political (as opposed to military) leader either, for that very reason. Augustus did a rather better job of acquiring the same degree of control without making his power grab so obvious. One can debate, of course, whether Caesar's assassins or Jon's had the more legitimate grievances.
     
  4. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Location:
    Ireland
    While I love Jon and was looking forward to him taking on Ramsay at Winterfell, the actions of Marsh etc are of course entirely justifiable from their POV. The Watch was not supposed to get involved in disputes of the realm, but here they were all but throwing their lot in with Stannis, a defeated usurper. Then Jon was proposing to declare war on the new Warden of the North, or at least his son. Quite right he was, but this was basically revenge, not part of his duties as Lord Commander or a member of the Watch.

    As Brendan has said, Marsh etc weren't privy to Jon's thoughts and must have imagined that this would lead to the Lannisters sending a force up to destroy the remnants of the Nights Watch. These were men who had dedicated their lives to the black. I don't agree with what they did and I hope Jon recovers and nails Ramsay's body to the highest tower in Winterfell, but one can certainly understand that they did what they felt they had to do.
     
  5. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2001
    Location:
    Hotel Transylvania
    Tommen recast?

    He will be played by the same actor that played Martyn Lannister. :wtf:
     
  6. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Location:
    Maine
    That makes sense. The show is likely to emphasize Margaery's efforts to ingratiate herself with Tommen more than the books did, which would make him a more prominent character.
     
  7. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Great Britain
    I'm assuming Gatiss is Bloodraven now, as we've had all the other roles I'd suspected cast.

    Also, I've been bored off my tits recently so jotted down my picks for the 5 most underrated ASOIF characters on my blog.
     
  8. Klaus

    Klaus Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Location:
    Beach condo, Bay of Eldamar
    Defeated yes, but not usurper... the humorless SOB is still the rightful king by the line of succession.
     
  9. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Location:
    Ireland
    ^yes, but I mean that's how those from the Night's Watch, unaware of the truth of Joffrey and Tommen's parentage, would have seen it.
     
  10. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Location:
    Ireland
  11. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Location:
    Who is John Galt?
    Has Oberyn Martell been cast yet? If not, that would be my guess. He even kind of looks like this artist's rendition of him, with matching long nose and dark hair. Make the hair a tad bit longer and you have him 100%.

    "Princess of Dorne, you raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children!!"
     
  12. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2012
    Yeah, Oberyn was the first to be cast of this season, to be played by Chilean actor Pedro Pascal.
     
  13. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Location:
    Who is John Galt?
    Hmmm...then I got nothin... :(
     
  14. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Location:
    Ireland
    Some people at Comingsoon thought 'young Griff' but I wouldn't have thought he'll be introduced in season 4.
     
  15. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Location:
    Who is John Galt?
    Yeah, that does seem a bit early. Then again, we saw some early Theon/Reek stuff before we should have, chronologically, so could be...
     
  16. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Location:
    Ireland
    ^That is true. But Ramsay's introduction was a means of keeping Alfie Allen in the show during the time his character was 'offscreen' in the books. Would they introduce Griff before the trial/death by crossbow/fugitive Tyrion? Surely they have enough characters and sub-plots without introducing a new one?

    Or maybe Tyrion will go on the run before the end of the season.
     
  17. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Great Britain
    I hope we get less new material this year. It isn't what the writers are good at.
     
  18. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    I thought that Ramsay was torturing Theon throughout "Storm of Swords".
     
  19. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Location:
    Ireland
    ^Offscreen (or off-page, technically). It's actually happened in the TV show at the right time, it's just that we're actually seeing it, as oppose to Theon remembering it in his POV chapters.
     
  20. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Location:
    Maine
    Deadline Hollywood (a typically reliable business-slanted entertainment news site) is reporting that Huisman will replace another actor. Lots of suggestions in the comments at Winter is Coming, but no consensus on who it might be, if there really is another recasting.
     

Share This Page