A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    THAT's the other thing I was going to say. It's so totally pointless and ridiculous to invent it, because you just spend the rest of the scene thinking "Does she? I don't think so."

    At least do it in subsequent episodes, or don't bother.
     
  2. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I didn't like how the episode played Omega as a representation of "perfection" and that achieving perfection is the goal of the Borg, and then Seven has a religious experience when she sees the particle forming. I liked the motivation that the Borg had ever since BOBW; they want to assimilate everything into their collective and bring order to chaos. I don't like the idea that they leave certain species out because the detract from achieving perfection. If I want to be nit-picky then I'd point out that this was first referenced in Mortal Coil as an in-joke about how useless the Kazon were, but the concept really only took off in The Omega Directive.

    That annoyed me, I won't deny it. When I saw that scene I shouted out "Since when?!" but the television did not respond to my query. Janeway didn't have a "Picard maneuver", if they wanted to introduce one then they could but they shouldn't introduce one and claim she had one all along.
     
  3. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    The Borg were originally more about assimilating other races and technologies to improve the collective - the "order from chaos" stuff came in First Contact IIRC. With that reading, it makes sense not to bother assimilating races that will add nothing. In "Q Who", they only want the Enterprise's technology, and abducting Picard and turning him into a Borg comes as a massive surprise.

    I didn't really understand what was so "perfect" about Omega anyway.
     
  4. Bertie

    Bertie Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Say one thing about "Dark Frontier": it had the most aggressive — and maybe the best — music in post-Ron Jones TV Trek. At least before some of ENT, anyway. Something about the theme just fit stalking around creepy Borg corridors perfectly.

    And another point on sound: the background screaming as the aliens were being assimilated. Really nothing else like it in all of Trek; it gave the scene a certain intensity that you wouldn't expect to find in the assimilation of a bunch of generic forehead aliens.

    Too bad the writing was such a muddle, because the production side sure came through on "Dark Frontier".
     
  5. NumberSix

    NumberSix Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I absolutely HATED that!! :scream:

    I can just imagine Beltran rolling his eyes when he read that part of the script and going "seriously?!"


    I liked Dark Frontier, I'm actually a fan of the Borg Queen and prefer Susannah Thompson over Alice Krige - she just seems so much more 'in control' than Alice's more emotional portrayal. I was disappointed in Endgame when they used Alice instead of Susannah, Susannah was the Voyager queen, Alice was the First Contact queen!

    I liked seeing Seven finally displaying her emotions in relation to the Borg as well, I don't think she ever says "I am Borg" after that episode.
     
  6. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    A few other things I wanted to mention but forgot to about "Dark Frontier":

    It was a big break through moment when Seven asserted to the Queen that "I am Annika". I thought that moment was a pivotal turning point for Seven and thought we'd see her taking more steps towards this beginning with using Annika as her name yet she was back to Seven the next week.

    It really wasn't until the final season and "Human Error" that this sort of character development was addressed again. I don't fault "Dark Frontier" for doing it I was just disappointed nothing more came of it.

    I also found Torres just collapsing the conduit to be a rather anti-climatic way to resolve the threat despite the fact it was set-up much earlier in the episode.
    This may sound inconsistent but I loved the way Alice Krige slinked around, her accent, her body language, the way she expresses things through her eyes, the way she cocks her head but Susannah acted more like a Borg that you'd expect--in control, not being so expressive.

    Still to this day Patrick Stewart's chilling performance as Locutus is the standard to which all Borg performances should be measured. He managed to convey menace without being overt about it yet was also very much an emotionless automaton. He masterfully walked that very fine line.
     
  7. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    You know, I think you're right - after this it becomes 'I WAS Borg,' and always with the emphasis on the fact that it's past tense. She comes to realize that she was taken by the Borg and used.

    Why couldn't they have gone for more of this subtle character development - even if you don't care for arc-based writing, you can still get in minor evolutions that become noticable upon rewatching.
     
  8. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Absolutely, he was the perfect individual within the collective and he acted more as the mouthpiece for the whole rather than the leader of the group. That was the queens biggest flaw, she acted more like she was controlling the collective rather than serving as a conduit for them.

    Plus, Locutus had a frickin' laser beam attached to his head! ;)


    The Disease (**)

    Say wha?! :wtf: That must be a fun conversation with your boss. "Captain, I have met a hot alien chick in a bar and I wish to bone her, can I get your permission in writing please?"

    This episode wasn't that bad considering its reputation, I particularly liked the moment where Kim stands up to Janeway on the bridge and then they argue it out in her ready room. The idea of a generation ship that wants to separate into different factions is also interesting even though it's not properly explored here.

    Problems? There's too many for me to remember them all but the biggest problem is how cringeworthy certain pieces of dialogue can get, which is fine in the scenes where it is supposed to be cringe-worthy but there's other times where it is just annoying. I'm thinking of Janeway's discussion with the alien captain at the beginning in particular. I also didn't like how the episode went with the suspense angle again when Voyager couldn't escape the exploding ship. That should have played as a hauntingly beautiful moment rather than yet another "We're all gonna die!!!" scene.

    Yes, I gave it the same score as Drone. Suck it. :p
     
  9. Frazzled

    Frazzled Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Heh heh :lol: Since watching this for the first time a few months ago I've been looking out for times that it's not followed - eg Janeway herself snogging Kashyk a few episodes back - she didn't drag him to the EMH 'doc, I'd like to insert my tongue into this guy's mouth, can you check if we're compatible please?!'
     
  10. Pemmer Harge

    Pemmer Harge Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Harry Kim, a model Starfleet officer who's served for five years doesn't have the right to question Janeway, but Chakotay, a terrorist she captured, does?
     
  11. The Grim Ghost

    The Grim Ghost Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Poor Harry. Of course he would have to be the one to catch space herpes.

    That whole "ask your CO and CMO before intimate relations" deal is a crock.

    How many times has say, Riker hooked up with an alien? Are we really expected to believe that he asked Picard and Crusher for permission before each encounter?
     
  12. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I think talking to the CMO before a sexual encounter with an alien is a good idea. And Riker didn't have sex that often and when he did in First Contact he wasn't given much of a choice, of course it's still up in the air whether or not he had sex.
     
  13. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    The Disease gets only 1.5 stars out of four from me.

    It was dull as dirt. Kim's romance was bland. The aliens were bland. The aliens' make-up was bland. Tal was bland. The romance was bland. Kim was annoying. The jeopardy plot was lacking. The "message" of the episode was simplistic.
     
  14. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    It's a good idea. It just happens to be at odds with everything we've seen before.

    So let's vote. Did Crusher have to give medical clearance before the TNG crew visited the Edo? Yes? No? I mean, they didn't bother finding out anything else about the planet...
     
  15. Dane_Whitman

    Dane_Whitman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Maybe so, but she was also stunningly sexy. :drool:
     
  16. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Did anybody have sex with any of the Edo? And yes Dr. Crusher gave her consent for people t obe sent to the Edo planet.
     
  17. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Okay, I admit it's been a while since I watched. I didn't recall that they actually consulted Dr. Crusher. But it was heavily implied that if they hadn't already started boinking the Edo, they were going to. "Any hat", indeed.
     
  18. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    She gave persmission for the landing parties, but I don't think anybody had sex the Edo.
     
  19. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Totally agreed. "Dark Frontier" is one of those that is kind of engaging and interesting to watch, but has so many logical holes and disappointing/conflicting elements that it just leaves you... wanting. :wtf:

    I agree. I don't think the Queen jumped the shark here, but "Unimatrix Zero"? Blech. I was one who wanted to believe that the "personality" the Queen exhibits was a combined reflection of the individuality of all the drones in the collective, but it gets really hard to believe it.

    I agree.

    I agree with your assessment of "Bliss." It's not as bad as the rep it's given, and we might be able to assume that the 'rule' has previously been enforced off-screen. If it only applies while on duty, and/or with a previously unknown race. :shifty:

    More proof of Rule # 3. :techman:
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Before we proceed I have a very important announcement to make. If you're not already sitting then now would be a good time to do so.

    When I started this thread I honestly thought I was doing so in order to reacquaint myself with Voyager because I feared I might have been unfairly judging it based on watching the show as a teenager. While many of my fears of what I perceived to be wrong with the show were played out, I was willing to admit two things; the show has slightly better continuity than I remembered (although I still have serious issues with it) and the show is more of an ensemble show than I remembered it. At least it is so far, I still have two and a bit seasons to go.

    However, I have been deceiving all of you, and I have even been deceiving myself. You see, I had no intention of being fair to Voyager as a show, this whole thread has been based around my need to bash Voyager, because I am a horrible villainous person with no soul. All those episodes I said I enjoyed? Lies, all lies. And the worst part is that I bought into my own deception, my villainy was so vile that I couldn't even admit it to myself because I didn't want to know what a horrible, horrible person I really am.

    But all that came to an end this afternoon thanks to the truth being exposed to be by the brilliant musings of Anwar. His argument cut to the core of my being without even knowing me or reading much of this thread. Who can argue against such insightful comments as "once a hater always a hater" or the pinnacle of human debate which is "yes, actually, yes"? I tried to argue against it, but my rebuttals could never match such well thought out arguments. :(

    So I am sorry to everybody who read this thread thinking that I was trying to be fair to the show, I can only ask for your forgiveness on this deception.


    And if you believed anything I wrote above you're a fucking loon. :p


    Demon Spawn (**)

    Come on, that's a way better title than Course: Oblivion.

    I somehow missed Demon when it first aired so when I saw this episode for the first time I thought it was quite good, but having seem Demon twice since then this episode just doesn't make sense. Where did the biomemetic Voyager come from? According to the timeline established in this episode they had under 13 days to build Voyager (and replicate Shmully somehow) and leave the demon planet, forgetting who they really are in the process. They also adapted to breath oxygen even though it was poisonous to them last time.

    I like the idea of this episode, I like quirky episodes like this where everything is seen from a different angle than how we usually see things. But I think that the fatal mistake this episode makes is that events happening on this duplicate Voyager are more interesting than the normally static nature of the real Voyager. Tom and B'Elanna get married, a new baby is born, they devise a new method of propulsion, people actually die... The ending is a reset button of sorts and next week we'll go back to a Voyager where there is 9 main characters who will fail to grow as they did on the duplicate ship. We'll have to wait another year and a half before we see the real Tom and B'Elanna get married, and even then we wont actually see it.

    Does anybody else find it ironic that duplicate Harry appears to be the last main character to die on the duplicate ship. Things really are different there. ;)
     

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