A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    True. :lol:
     
  2. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    So rather than Trek XI it led to a discussion about Seven's emotions and whether she should feel guilty about being part of the collective. At least it was about Voyager this time. ;)


    Nothing Human (*½)

    Please tell me that I'm not the only person who noticed that Janeway decided to create a new lifeform on a whim and none of the characters give it a second thought. :wtf: This is incredibly reckless stuff right here, it's like making a clone and harvesting its organs and then throwing it aside once you're done with it. Either holograms like Shmully are people or they're not and for the last four years it has been shoved down my throat that they are.

    Meanwhile Lt Carey and Ensign Vorik have been assigned to astrometrics because Janeway decided to play musical chairs with the department heads. Samantha Wildman was put in charge of security for the day while Ayala was made first officer and told to wear a dress. Janeway really loves fucking with the minds of the recurring characters.

    Moset is a hologram being run by the computer. His recollection is based off of data in the computer database. They don't need him to program it into the computer because it's already in the godsdamn thing!

    Oh, I get it now! Tabor is deeply upset about the fact that Moset experimented on members of his family. I didn't get that at all from the last two scenes he was in, I really needed this third one where he repeats himself so that slow people like me can catch up. This is a very considerate script for the mentally challenged. :)

    I liked what this episode was trying to be about, but this is the second time that Jeri Taylor has written an episode where the message at the end does not fit with the message of the rest of the episode. (The first being season 2's Alliances.) Everyone who wanted to destroy the Moset hologram was reacting from an emotional position while Doc Shmully was desperately trying to get everyone to be rational. He wins them around in the end, only to change his mind in the final minutes and react as irrationally as everyone else was. There's some good scenes and it gets points for trying, but ultimately the episode is a boring mess that doesn't know what it is trying to say.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2009
  3. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    We aim to please!
     
  4. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager


    The really silly thing about this episode is that they rely on Seven's technology all the time.

    Was Moset worse than the Borg?

    Consistency was not Voyager's strong suit.
     
  5. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Nothing Human gets 2 stars out of 4 from me--yet another disappointing Jeri Taylor script.

    This was an example of a potentially interesting dilemma presented in an extremely dull manner and as a result it lost me from the beginning. Paris/Torres never did much for me until portions of the last season so that drama in this episode failed to evoke anything from me. I simply didn't care. I was also tired with the hologram themes by this stage in the series so right there the writers lost my interest. The drama with the Maquis Bajoran didn't resonate. I'd also grown tired of B'elanna's moody shit. The alien was unique if nothing more than a plot device-hey at least it was something.

    Taylor should have looked at TNG's "Ethics" on how to create a medical dilemma show with a nice character-centered anchor. "Nothing Human" is the antithesis of everything that made that show so great.
     
  6. Bertie

    Bertie Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    On "Nothing Human" — While I guess the "Would it be ethical to use the results of Nazi Doctor experiments" question might have been the basis of some decent Trek, this isn't it. There's so much contrived mess needed to set up the theme that I hit my own personal "suspension of disbelief threshold" long before the episode's halfway point.

    (It doesn't help, either, that the morality of the Cardassian Occupation stuff was used in some towering, legendary DS9 episodes with some of the best writing and acting of the franchise — this episode suffers badly by comparison.)
     
  7. Dane_Whitman

    Dane_Whitman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    It was certainly good to see a non-humanoid alien species on Voyager again.
     
  8. The Grim Ghost

    The Grim Ghost Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    It hasn't though, it has been 'shoved down your throat' that the DOCTOR became sentient, not that all holograms are somehow alive and thinking creatures.

    I don't see the problem here. The Doctor being sentient doesn't automatically = all holograms are sentient/alive. I've argued this point here before, but let's hash it out again if we must.

    How is the Doctor different? Left on for WAY longer than most (any?) holograms. Generally screwed with by alien tech multiple times. Exposure to future tech through the mobile emitter. Given the ability to modify his own program. Able to leave his holo environment at will (there's that mobile emitter again).

    To me all of these things create a very unique situation. Now is any hologram capable of becoming sentient through this bizarre collection of happenings? We don't know. I'm inclined to say probably not, perhaps it depends on the initial sophistication of the program.

    The problem which Guy Gardner has raised before, is that the Doctor was treated as at least somewhat sentient (though certainly not to the degree he became later) from the beginning of the show. That messes up my theory a bit, I admit it. Still aside from that I think I made my point.
     
  9. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    ^ But a baby isn't sentient when it is born, it becomes self aware later after years of development, by your analogy the creation of a complex holoprogram like Moset is similar to creating a baby. I could never imagine Janeway saying "You know what might make our short term problem a little easier? Having a baby." I also can't see her immidiately contacting Chakotay and telling him to meet her in her quarters sans pants (that's a little something for all you J/Cers out there ;)).
     
  10. The Grim Ghost

    The Grim Ghost Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    ^ Well this goes back to the problem of are all holograms capable of becoming sentient or aren't they?

    We just don't know. So I guess you could argue that until they know one way or the other no more holograms should be created or used. That is a valid argument to make.

    My belief is that the Doctor became sentient through a wild, once in a lifetime type series of things happening to him over the years.

    Now we come to the problem of other holograms that have been presented in this way, like Vic and maybe Moriarty. Are they sentient? I don't know. I'm inclined to believe Vic might possibly be. But he is also in a unique situation, of being programmed by some sort of holo-genius and eventually is allowed to have his program constantly running. So the Doctor and Vic have something in common there. Both created by genius holo programmers and being allowed to run much longer than the average program.

    It seems that the Fleeters have usually decided to be cautious about using tech that might be considered sentient as tools. Like Data and the exo-comps for instance. So maybe you're right, based on that Janeway might be doing exactly what you suggest. But I don't think that was in her mind, or her intention.

    It all goes back to this point really, I see the Doctor as a unique accident of many things coming together. To me that doesn't suggest that every other hologram is capable of becoming like him. But I could certainly be wrong about that.
     
  11. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I believe babies are self-aware - they just don't have the ability to let everyone know about it. I have memories of lying in my crib as an infant.
     
  12. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    That's the way I look at it. There was plenty wrong with this episode but I honestly can say that didn't bother me in the slightest. There are certain holograms created in unique situations that made them more than just your average hologram--Moriarty, the Doctor, Vic Fontaine.

    I viewed Moset like Leah Brahms in "Booby Trap"- a helpful interactive tool beyond just simply reviewing data on a computer screen that allowed him to bounce ideas off of as well as providing assistance when necessary. Yes, the Doctor could have just downloaded the skills and knowledge into his own matrix--it was mentioned early on in the series that he had been programmed with knowledge from a number of physicians including possibly Dr McCoy-but of course Jeri Taylor didn't for obvious creative reasons.

    Really this episode's greatest sin for me was being so boring that it never gave me a chance to even wade into the episode's material. Once that happens I'm not going to expend a lot of time analyzing an episode when I'm apathetic about it--although I guess to some degree I already have.:lol:
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  13. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    "Nothing Human?" Blah. If I want Cardassian/Bajoran angst, I'd watch DS9. (Come to think of it, maybe I will. "Duet" sounds good about now.)

    This was more or less a retread of "Jetrel" for me, without any of the redeeming qualities.

    And, GodBen, you weren't the only one who noticed how apparently easy to make a hologram as good as the Doctor on a whim. Now we know where that backup from "Living Witness" came from, I guess.
     
  14. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Personally, I'm curious... why is it that they have to create a second hologram? If the research is in the computer's database, should the Doctor be able to access it all on his own? And... Okay, so even if I swallowed that, the hologram basically IS Crell Moset, making this hologram just as aware and as 'alive' as the real Moset, which makes him just as responsible? Huh? This is another level of absurdity from Voyager's stance on holographic life - they can so casually create and destroy sentient life? Seriously? And NO ONE has taken a moment to realize this fact? And... Couldn't they have just altered the appearance of the Moset hologram? And, on another note, why does no one throw out the argument of how those who died in Moset's research might want their deaths to mean something and for the research to be used to save lives?

    Nothing Human has good intentions, but it's so buried under all this other stuff... I think I might have liked the story better had it been used on DS9 where it could be the REAL Crell Moset - at least then it wouldn't be this hologram that is Moset in every respect except for being made out of photons and light instead of flesh and blood.
     
  15. The Grim Ghost

    The Grim Ghost Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    See, I would have set up the conflict between the Doctor and the Moset hologram rather than bring others into it.

    Let's say the Doc pulls a Leah Brahms and creates the Moset hologram to aid him, much like in the episode. Maybe the crew is in danger of being further infected by the creature, not just BLT in danger..

    Moset believes BLT will die no matter what and is urging the EMH to 'use' her death for a good purpose and save the lives of the rest of the crew. The EMH is stuck with the problem of following his advice or continuing to try and treat her when he knows she will still die in the end. (of course this being Trek, she ends up being saved anyway). I think that would have made much more sense and been more interesting.
     
  16. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Very well said. :techman:

    That would have helped, but I still think it was a little out of place on VGR.
     
  17. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I think this is debatable, the explanation I thought the show gave was that the EMH was programmed with a new "adaptive matrix" created by Zimmerman which meant he could learn and adapt over time. The EMH became sentient over time because of this matrix and the fact that he was left active for far longer than an EMH normally should. Since Crell Moset was to be "nearly as sophisticated" as the EMH I assumed they were also going to program this adaptive matrix into him so that he had the same ability to become self aware as Shmully did.

    That bothers me too. Lewis Zimmerman programmed the EMH to look like him and programmed his personality to be similar to his own, so by this episode's logic Shmully is culpable for the crimes of his creator. If Zimmerman was to rape someone then Shmully should be imprisoned too? I think not.
     
  18. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    God, I hated 'Nothing Human'. Leaving aside the ramifications of creating a new lifeform (and holographic Doctor, which was impossible a few episodes ago) at the touch of a button, it's much like 'Tuvix' in the way it really arses up an interesting story. Like 'Tuvix', the episode is set up so that it can only have one logical conclusion: B'Elanna must die, just as Tuvix has a right to life. Then in the end we get a complete volte-face, born out of the necessity that Torres, Tuvok and Neelix must be alive next week. It's poorly plotted, because the audience knows which way it's going to end. They try to lead you up the garden path during most of the episode, because otherwise it would be a fairly pointless episode, but then needs a very unconvincing turn around in the final moments.

    I think it's badly conceived, and really not a Voyager type story at all.
     
  19. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Thirty Days (***½)

    This episode builds beautifully upon the previously well-defined love that Tom has for sailing ships and all things to do with the ocean. I can't believe it took them this long to do a story about it considering how much time they have spent talking about that part of his character in previous episodes.

    Did I mention that I've taken up randomly lying?

    The ocean planet is a cool concept, and there is clearly an underlying theme here about how governments are slow to react to impending ecological disaster and that leads to eco-terrorism. It's a mostly enjoyable episode and for once there really is consequences, Tom is demoted to ensign and he will stay that way for almost two years.

    But I just wouldn't be myself if I didn't have some problem to complain about, and the truth is that I'm not wild about the flashback angle of the story. The main problem is that I would have liked to have seen Tom in the brig for a few episodes, but the flashbacks are used as a way of getting Tom's stay in the brig out of the way in one episode. Another problem I had was the giant eel attack. I realise that this episode was aired before Episode I was released, but seeing a giant fish thing attacking a submarine brings back bad memories. ;)

    Torpedoes: 39/38


    They fired one torpedo in order to stop Tom, this show has officially jumped the shark!!!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  20. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    "Nothing Human" is a well intentioned disaster. It's one of those episodes that seems to have some kind of point but (shocker) fails in execution - which fraks it all up. I think this would have worked better on DS9; that way the actual Cardassian doctor could have been involved. But as it is, this episode just annoys.

    I didn't catch "Thirty Days" on television. I remember being pleasantly surprised when I saw it on DVD. But that's...all I remember. lol. I'll have to rewatch this one. :)
     

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