A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Captain Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    :rolleyes:

    Why cause I made a joke and then answered someone's question why I bother to read the thread? And in the answer I give props to the original poster of the thread and state my overall feel on Voyager.

    Yet that's trolling?

    Touchy touchy.
     
  2. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Hey, I don't make the rules. It's my job to make sure you follow them though so it's up to you if you can or not. Please don't showboat any more in this thread. If you wish to discuss further you can pm me.
     
  3. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Damn, I may as well just give up this thread right now. :( But I've already done that once this week.


    Timeless (****½)

    Miracles do happen. Sometimes a person finds a winning lottery ticket discarded on the street. Sometimes a plane can crash-land on water with no casualties. Sometimes a woman will agree to sleep with me before I get to chance to spike her drink with rohypnol.

    But the rarest miracle of all is a great Harry Kim episode.

    There's really only one thing which holds me back from giving this episode the full five stars, and that thing is the non-explanation about the slipstream drive and why they can't use it to take several big "hops" back to the AQ. Everything else about this episode was pretty great; the characterisation of future Harry, the juxtaposition of the story in the future with the story in the "present", Voyager's crash-landing. And even though there is a big reset button ending the episode makes the reset satisfying, unlike Year of Hell where the reset detracted from the episode.

    But this episode has one huge flaw; it treats history as though it were a single strand, and everybody knows that when you change history you create an alternate timeline like the ones Worf visited in Parallels. This is all explained by quantum mechanics which is the most awesome scientific theory of all time, even beating out evolution via natural selection. There's no reason for Kim and Chakotay to sacrifice themselves to save Voyager because Voyager already survived in another timeline. I don't know how the writers thought they were going to get away with this pitiful excuse of a time-travel concept.

    ;)

    Harry Deaths: 3
     
  4. Bertie

    Bertie Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    "Timeless" may only get four and a half stars, but this paragraph gets five.
     
  5. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I was going to argue about how it's confirmation about how Voyager managed to survive that whole thing... but then my time travel headache started up and I went to go get the aspirin.
     
  6. Korasine

    Korasine Ensign

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    What exactly are you going on about here?
    First of all, you said it yourself - quantum mechanics is just a THEORY.
    Second of all, Timeless's approach to time travel is Star Trek's most common approach to time travel, only did the new Star Trek movie really take the "quantum mechanics" approach to time travel stories.
    Its ridiculous to mark an episode down because it didn't adhere to your favorite scientific theory, that's ludicrous. That's like marking an episode down because they find out the universe wasn't formed by the big bang.
     
  7. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    The phrase "just a theory" irks me somewhat. Theories aren't just abstract concepts, they are a framework built around established facts. There's a theory of gravitation to explain how gravity works, but that doesn't make gravity any less real.

    I realise that, now go reread my post and take a look at the wink smiley at the end. ;) It might also help if you knew my opinions of the new Trek movie which I posted several dozen pages back.
     
  8. Korasine

    Korasine Ensign

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Quantum mechanics theory IS purely theoretical unlike gravity. There have been no tests of "quantum mechanics", it is simply a case of some scientists making crap up off the top of their heads.
    And if your last paragraph meant that you don't like Star Trek XI's approach to time travel (parallel universes for every occasion so why give a damn?) then I agree...
    I still think Timeless is overrated though and think Wang's performances really taints the episode, he just couldn't act.
     
  9. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    "Timeless" gets 3.5 stars out of 4 from me.

    It is another outstanding high concept sci-fi episode by Brannon that joins the ranks of episodes like Cause and Effect, Timescape, Parallels, All Good Things, Deadlock etc.

    It is amazing how they were able to make this one hour episode feel almost as if it were a two hour epic. The visual effect sequences were imaginative and well executed, the various imagery i.e. the frozen tomb of Voyager was just as gripping as the story, the Borg technology that allowed for the reset button was not only clever but answered how Seven was aware of FC events, the dialog was sharp, the character interactions had depth and the writers nicely used previously established technology i.e. the slipstream drive as a welcomed bit of continuity--love that when it happens, and we get a neat cameo from LeVar Burton.

    I think it just goes to show that Brannon enjoys writing his own stuff than being in charge of the writing room and overseeing the show. How else do you explain how his episodes were the highlights of season five yet the season as a whole was middling. I also thought this was a much better 100th episode than either TNG's decent but varied Redemption or DS9's mediocre "The Ship"
     
  10. NumberSix

    NumberSix Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Timeless

    Has to be one of my most favourite episodes of Voyager. And it's a Harry episode! Can't think of any others that have topped it (at the moment, anyway).
    I watched it last night myself and really have to applaud Garrett Wang's acting. Is it my imagination or does he play future Harry better than past Harry? Maybe because this character was actually worth playing. I also liked the Doctor's input and his verbal slap-in-the-face to put Kim back on track at the end. Chakotay got some ok screen time too.

    Even though I knew Kim would fix the whole mess somehow by the end of the episode, and of course not get Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant cos that was just never a possibility :rolleyes:, I really felt for him when he thought he had failed. And in those last few moments when he finally did it, I screamed "yes!" too. Oh, if only Harry could be cool throughout the whole series...
     
  11. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Captain Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Awesome! :techman:

    Also, glad you are keeping track of the writers, torpedo's, and shuttles. I would've never thought they used so few torps in the first couple of seasons. I wonder if the writers originally tried to keep to the concept of limited supplies and eventually said screw it?

    To add to that, with the minimal amount Voyager is over the limit after 4 seasons, its a little easier to give some leeway to the theory to use your imagination that they spent some boring time re-supplying while we are seeing the more important moments.

    Eh, if only Voyager had the consistency of its best episodes.
     
  12. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Ah, the universe feels right. Harry is dead again. :)

    In all seriousness, this is one of my top five favorite Voyager episodes. It's not totally perfect, but it's still awesome. Not unlike "Yesterday's Enterprise" for TNG, if VGR was going to get a movie, this story should have been saved for it. As it was, a modified version of "Timeless" might have made an excellent series finale, especially if expanded to two-hours.

    Don't bring theoretical science into this, silly goose! :rommie:
     
  13. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Like Evolution, Gravity, Relativity, Electromagnetism, and the Earth being round?


    For example: The double-slit experiment, The quantum-eraser experiment, and Wheeler's delayed choice experiment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2009
  14. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    ^ I think you need to edit your post; it now looks like GodBen was arguing against you, when you're really on the same side.

    I too enjoy "Timeless". I too enjoy future Harry Kim better than the one we're saddled with most of the time. I too loved the LaForge cameo. But even though I enjoyed this episode and would give it a fairly high rating, it doesn't rank in the highest episodes for me. I don't know why really; I just don't connect with it on some level.

    But the time travel quantum thingy doesn't bother me at all. Trek tells silly time travel stories all the time, and you either accept that or you don't. I choose to accept it, with few exceptions. Maybe because all of Trek seems to be guilty of this, and I'd have to disavow so much of it that it wouldn't be worth it. Or maybe because Voyager has so many strikes against it, that to add this to the mix just seems mean. I don't know. I can understand how it could bother some people though.
     
  15. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    The time-travel quantum mechanics thing doesn't bother me in Timeless because this episode is consistent with how time travel stories always work in Trek. However the time travel concept used in Trek XI is not consistent with the rest of Trek, and while I don't need Trek to be scientifically accurate I much prefer it when it stays within the bounds of its own internal logic.

    Unfortunately the writers of Trek XI were too lazy to make a Trek movie in the existing canon because they seem to have trouble creating drama without blowing up planets or killing people off, and they were too cowardly to just do a straight-up reboot. So they create this bizarre contraption of an alternate reality with giant Enterprises created by time travel, and in their attempts to excuse it they gave interviews saying how it fits in with TNG's Parallels and how quantum mechanics (the greatest scientific theory EVER) supports their story. Frankly, I thought the whole thing reeked of desperation even back when I had high hopes before seeing the movie.

    But then again, I'm just a viewer with an opinion. :)

    Hang on, sfdebris has just sent me a PM saying he is going to sue me for using his line. :(
     
  16. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I believe at the time it was judged too unstable however I'm disappointed they didn't keep working on it throughout the series and have it finally work for them in the finalte - perhaps when encountering thre Vaadwaur. For me they would have made the better villain than the borg plus why would you need an admiral from the future to show up with future techie gadgets when you can make them yourself thankyouverymuch?

    However, that's not an episode-specific criticism. "Timeless" on it's own is great. :)
     
  17. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Wasn't there Voyager's capability (structural integrity issues) to consider as well? Was Voyager able to "take" those slip-stream forces during a long-term journey?
     
  18. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    But they didn't need to take a long-term journey, they just needed to take several short jumps. They jumped 10,000 light-years in this episode, so all they'd need to do is sit around for a few days and magically repair the ship (as they always do) and then take another 10,000 light year jump. Rinse and repeat, they'll be home by the end of the month.

    I don't remember being given any explanation why they couldn't do this and it is the one thing about Timeless which has always bugged me.
     
  19. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Yeah, this always annoyed me. If they'd just slipped in a simple line about repeated short jumps damaging the ship, it would have been fine. I wonder if there was such a line in the script, but it was cut for time?

    I quite enjoy Timeless - the buried, frosty ship is a great image, and the crash special effects were superb. Kudos for the attempt to give Harry a meaningful episode, but it doesn't quite work for me. Probably because I suspect he was only doing it so he had a chance to get promoted before Voyager got home.

    I don't think there's any point analysing the quantum physics behind the time aspects. Star Trek episodes are usually fairly internally consistent when it comes to matters of time travel, even if next episode the laws might be completely different. I think that's the only way to deal with it, because it's all guff anyway, so the needs of the story have to become more important. This episode is basically the 'Terminator' take on time travel.

    The Geordi cameo always gives me a silly, fanboy grin. :D
     
  20. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I don't mind if the writers apply different temporal mechanics in various episodes just so long as they explain clearly to the audience the mindset behind how they envision it working.

    I wasn't put out by the fact, for instance, that "City on the Edge of Forever" or First Contact portrayed changes in the timeline are instantaneous once someone goes back in time while "Carpenter Street" as part of the Xindi arc suggested that changes slowly wind their way forward along the timeline. By the same token, I didn't care that XI had their parallel universe/alternate timeline theory when in other instances changes in a timeline are confined to that one history.