A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    My problem isn't Janeway making the decision because that made sense given the circumstances, my problem is the lack of consequences. They had a 1 in 20 chance of survival yet Voyager gets through the ordeal with no damage and no casualties, and I call BS on that. It was built up as such a dangerous thing that the aliens were willing to give up and leave the ship (and half of them died when their ship blew up) and it is so ridiculous that after all the build-up absolutely nothing happened.

    I don't think you can say that TMP was mooshed into too short a time-frame. ;)

    Frankly, I think that most people are being too fair on Trek XI for having to set up the characters and using that as a reason why they didn't have time to focus on the plot. Every (non-sequel) movie ever made has had to introduce the audience to the characters and their lives while still trying to tell a story, so it is ridiculous that people are using this as an argument to defend this movie.

    The problem isn't that they spent so much time focusing on defining the characters, the problem is how much time was spent on superfluous scenes such as the monster chase. All they needed to do was cut out five minutes of the pointless action scenes and use that time to fix the story, but my unfortunate opinion is that the writers couldn't work the story so they threw in as much action as they could to distract the audience from how lacklustre the whole thing was.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2009
  2. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Could be the Prophets, or the Preservers, or even the Q!

    What battleship? It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada - Pike sez. :p
     
  3. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Um, no. God forbid.

    And I agree with you on this:
    Frankly, I think that most people are being too fair on Trek XI for having to set up the characters and using that as a reason why they didn't have time to focus on the plot. Every (non-sequel) movie ever made has had to introduce the audience to the characters and their lives while still trying to tell a story, so it is ridiculous that people are using this as an argument to defend this movie.

    The problem isn't that they spent so much time focusing on defining the characters, the problem is how much time was spent on superfluous scenes such as the monster chase. All they needed to do was cut out five minutes of the pointless action scenes and use that time to fix the story, but my unfortunate opinion is that the writers couldn't work the story so they threw in as much action as they could to distract the audience from how lacklustre the whole thing was.

    Or the Blue Fairy. Ooh, sorry, wrong genre.

    What battleship? It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada - Pike sez. :p

    :p Back atcha!
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2009
  4. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    But "beating the odds" is supposed to be a Trek captain staple! ;)
     
  5. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I actually kinda liked "Scientific Method" even if parts were silly. I'd give it ** :shifty:
     
  6. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I think it was this episode that saw the only outing for Seven of Nine's brown outfit in the same style of the original silver one. Maybe this episode was produced before "The Raven", or there weren't enough of the new costume yet, so they just died the silver ones as short-term cover?

    Chakotay's "ageing" make-up looked cool, though he looked more like a fossilised skull than an eighty year old man.

    "Year of Hell" is up next. Exciting!
     
  7. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Perhaps. :lol:


    Year of Hell, Part 1 (****)


    I know what some of you are probably thinking, I like this episode because the ship gets blowed up real good. Well that is only part of it, I also happen to like the story because I don't remember Trek doing a time-travel episode of this type before and it is a good story. Watching history change with a big shockwave is fun.

    My main issue with this episode is that it is doomed to be a reset-button ending, the fact that the story focuses on a history-altering ship assures it. After the first part originally aired on TV a friend of mine read a magazine which explained how the second part would end and tried to taunt me with it, but I said "Let me guess, Voyager rams into the time-ship and the whole thing never happened" and he gave me a semi-shocked look. So there you have it, the Voyager writers were working on the same wave-lenght as a 12 year old. :p

    The other problem I have is the ending where the crew splits up because I don't understand why. The Krenim Imperium has been made weak by the last time-wave and Voyager's main concern is to get as far away from Red Foreman's time-ship as they possibly can, so why bother sending the crew away in escape pods which surely would only have thrusters? It barely made sense earlier in the episode, it makes absolutely no sense here.

    A fun episode, one which shows a Voyager we would never get properly acquainted with, you just have to stave off that nagging voice in the back of your head which warns you that none of this is going to make a damn bit of difference.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  8. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Voyager had some classic interesting episodes. I like the one with the robots and their war, or the crazy self thinking missle BE' lana had to stop for example.

    Seska was an interesting character, but it was hard to understand her motivation; she wanted to get back to the alpha quandrant as soon as possible, no matter what it took, yet left the ship and stayed with the Kazon.

    And then spent most of that time, scheming to with them to get Voyager, so they could use it to conquer the other Kazon territories or something. How does that get her home any sooner?

    However, I think Voyager "jumped the shark" with too many time travel episodes, picking up the new passengers, defeating the Borg too much...

    It's still fun late time viewing though..
     
  9. The Grim Ghost

    The Grim Ghost Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    True, but to be fair it made quite a bit of difference to Annorax!
     
  10. NumberSix

    NumberSix Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Year of Hell

    I liked this episode, particularly Chakotay being sucked in to Annorax's way of thinking and Tom having to give him a verbal slap in the face. The only thing that annoys me is at the end when Janeway is about to crash into the time ship. We see the determined look on her face, cut to an external view of the ship for two seconds, and then back to her saying "time's up" - which is so clearly a different take because her hair is styled (or 'messed up') differently. Bugs me every time.
     
  11. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I think it's one of Voyager's best episodes, despite the dreaded reset button. I think this is probably the worst use of it in any Trek episode, as the whole thing is totally meaningless by the end - no one remembers anything. It would have been more interesting to have Tom and Chakotay (who work very well together in the story, well done writers) help the Kremin blow up the ship, but time is not reset. Then you can spend the rest of the season doing the usual stories, but framing it around Janeway's efforts to reunite her crew and repair the ship. I know it wouldn't have happened for a million reasons, but the ending as written is just a bit embarrassing. It's like "Course Oblivion", which has the same kick in the teeth ending.

    Other than that, it's great. Annorex is an interesting character, not truly villainous, and the idea that these people have been flying around for centuries altering history a piece at a time is a brilliant one. You probably shouldn't pause for too long to think about the logic or the consequences of it all though. As I said, Tom and Chakotay are an interesting pairing, and the conflict on the time ship is believable.

    Janeway annoyed me though. Flying through hostile space when she's been told they aren't welcome just they are a bit rude? It obviously wasn't worth the hassle, and she should have simply found another way around.
     
  12. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I like "Year of Hell" a lot, but the escape pods bit made no sense, and the reset button was annoying.

    I think the idea behind the escape pods was to emphasize how dire the situation was, but why not just strand the crew on a habitable planet far enough away from anything to not be in danger? That might have been more interesting.

    I also like the scenario Tomalak suggests above for how this could have gone without using the reset button. It would have been nice, several episodes from now, to have someone say "Remember that time the ship got blown to hell by the Krenim? This damn door hasn't closed right ever since."

    Even that would have made me happy. :p
     
  13. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Scientific Method: ***
    YOH: **
     
  14. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Year of Hell, Part 2 (****)

    And the reset hits. Ah well.

    What I really love about this episode is Annorax, since finishing the episode I've been using him in the Trek XI forum as an example of a really good antagonist because of the fact that you care about him and part of you wants him to succeed. He's not your standard villain who destroys entire worlds for absolutely no reason *cough*Nero*cough*, Annorax is a person first and foremost and his story is compelling. Even during the final battle sequence he is given that beautiful character moment where he runs into his office to find the lock of his wife's hair disintegrate before his eyes. That's how you make an antagonist. :techman:

    In previous posts I made comments about how Voyager (the ship) never felt like a character as the classic Enterprise did. Well in this timeline Voyager finally gets the character I felt it was lacking; it held on just long enough to make it through the battle, and the ship's sacrifice saved the lives of billions. It is a beautiful idea, and it almost negates the fact that the episode ends on a big reset, but not quite.

    I'm confused about what Voyager was doing for almost 200 days. The only reason I can think why this episode took place over such a long time-frame is that they had the title "Year of Hell" since season 3 and 80 days just wouldn't cut it.

    It's a great two-parter, but it is a pity that there was no consequences for anything which happened in the episodes. It makes we wish that Braga's idea of having a year-long arc had been allowed, but I guess I'll have to wait until I rewatch Enterprise for that.
     
  15. Fish1941

    Fish1941 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager


    So what? There is nothing wrong with a reset-button ending. The new Trek movie certainly needed one. Now, we'll be stuck with more movies that involved a rapidly promoted Kirk, the Spock/Uhura romance and a 17 year-old Chekov with an officer's commission. Where is that reset button when one needs it?
     
  16. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager


    Of course there is. It's usually the writer taking the easy way out because they've written themselves into a corner and can't work out how to resolve the situation. It shows bad plotting, and it usually undermines the story. When I first saw "Year of Hell", I could see where it was headed, but still the sight of that gleaming Voyager on "Day 1" was galling. It's as bad as making the whole story a dream, or waking up to find Bobby in the shower. None of the characters are any the wiser for their experiences, since they never really happened.

    One of the things I did like about the new movie was that Vulcan stayed dead. We've been so conditioned by Star Trek to expect any major development to have been reset at the end of the episode that it came as quite a shock to find that Vulcan really wasn't coming back. It's a different world, which is a necessity if the new adventures of James T. Kirk are to maintain any sense of peril - if we know he's just going to grow up to become William Shatner, and fall for Edit Keeler, have some trouble with tribbles, fall off a bridge and die in Patrick Stewart's arms, there's not much point.
     
  17. Vykan12

    Vykan12 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    About Vulcan being destroyed... Star Fleet knew about Vulcan's impending destruction minutes before it happened, so why didn't they send a warning for all Vulcans to evacuate to a nearby planet or something? That severely cheapened that particular moment for me,
    as did many other plotholes in the film.

    And I cannot say I really agree with Vulcan's destruction from a plot device perspective. Spock and the remaining Vulcans having to re-populate their race might make an interesting concept in the sequel, but that aside, why remove one of the most pivotal species in the show? It's like getting rid of the Kardasians in season 1 of DS9, it wastes a lot of potential.
     
  18. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    The point of drama is that characters learn and grow, so if the episode ends with a reset where nobody remembers anything that happened then the purpose of the show is defeated. Year of Hell had some great character work for the cast, especially Janeway, but that all comes to nought with the reset ending.

    No, it didn't. I did not like Star Trek and feel it was a bad movie, but one thing I will praise it for is the fact that it took big risks and didn't reset everything at the end. Star Trek became too safe over the years, it is nice to know that someone with balls is in charge again, I only wish they had the talent to match it.
     
  19. Vykan12

    Vykan12 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Watching DS9 in almost its entirety (still have S7 to go) has made me realize the power of continuity, story arcs and daring writing, and Voyager most certainly missed out on all those frontiers.

    Imagine a season long arc of "year of hell" where Voyager starts off bright eyed and cheery, proverbially speaking, then battle after battle wears it down into a more sober state as supplies run thin, replacement parts become scarce and crew morale suffers. The progression from an optimistic start to the harsh, brooding reality of space travel could've very well been the prevailing theme of the show, but unfortunately Voyager always chose to be too family friendly instead of risking to be a little darker in its presentation.

    The same can be said of the Borg. Imagine a conflict with them that resembled the masterpiece that is the dominion war. Instead, the Borg conflict was an on-and-off kinda thing, with its only constant reminder being in the character of 7. And, once again, the Borg lost their intimidation factor as a means of keeping the show safe and approachable to all audiences, but the writing would've been far richer if Voyager didn't develop a quick-fix to the borg threat in nano-probes. The struggle could've been fleshed out over more episodes so we could get the impression that despite how dangerous the borg are, Voyager is making small strides against them. That way, we have a more genuine and appreciable struggle.

    There are many other recurrences that gave DS9 its power, while Voyager suffered in its absence. The baseball for instance, represented the Dominion war as being a game, but with the highest imaginable stakes involved. Its secondary characters were amazing: General Martok, Zial, Rom, Laleeta, the Grand Nagus, Weyoun, even Morn. DS9 stuck with its premises about Bejor, Kardasia, the wormhole, the prophets, etc and wove a very intricate plot with a lot to appreciate, certainly enough for multiple watchings. Where was Voyager's reccurences? They were bare-boned at best.
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Agreed entirely. :techman: DS9 took risks with the story and characters and it built upon previously defined traits in interesting ways. It still made mistakes and screwed up in many places, but there was a complexity and depth to the show which the others just didn't have, and it is the reason why it is my favourite show. The reason why I'm so critical of Voyager is that I watched both shows concurrently when they aired and Voyager's faults were made more apparent in contrast with DS9.

    Sorry if somebody has suggested this to you before, but you might enjoy Ron Moore's reimagining of Battlestar Galactica. Moore originally wrote for TNG before becoming one of DS9's main writers, and when DS9 ended he moved to Voyager. He hated the work environment on Voyager and how the show wasn't willing to take the risks that DS9 took, so he quit after 6 episodes and gave a looooong interview detailing everything he felt was wrong with Voyager.

    Battlestar Galactica is a similar show to Voyager except Ron Moore implemented many of the changes he wanted to see on Voyager. It is about a fleet fleeing the genocide of their worlds, and it is a very dark and adult show with great continuity and it is focused very much on the characters. There is no aliens, no stopping off to scan nearby anomalies, it is about a group of 50,000 human survivors struggling to survive. It's not perfect, but it is a very dark and very serious cross between DS9 and Voyager, and it is one of my favourite shows ever.