A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I enjoyed this episode a lot too. The dinosaur thing doesn't bother me, the way it does a lot of people. I liked the ideas of it...and the presentation of them as well.

    This was the episode where the series started embracing the wonders of CGI (in my mind), which at the time looked far more impressive visually than anything seen thus far. I remember being in awe of the 'dinosaur ship'. From here on out Voyager's effects look AMAZING - blowing Next Gen out of the water. While I often complain about the faults of Voyager, visually Voyager broke away from the pack here and never really looked back. DS9 was doing some incredible work as well (those space battles just can't be beat) but Voyager seemed to really put a lot into it's effects with some really cool results. I'd say this was the saving grace of Voyager, but in time all effects look dated and the only thing that will matter to those future audience members are the stories that were told - which is why I believe that DS9 will continue to find audiences...and that Voyager probably won't, or not to the same degree. Because I think most people looking for a good story probably require that the characters and plot points make sense. Still, the series has it's moments.

    I also liked the continuity with Hogan's bones from "Basics" - that Voyager was referencing a previous episode for a plot point seemed like a major step in the right direction to me. And I had liked Hogan in his few brief appearances, so having his death lead to another plot felt almost like closure. Nice.

    Actually anytime I saw a crewman more than once on Voyager I was happy.
     
  2. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    What we have is a tiny percentage of what actually existed, it is like trying to figure out the picture of a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle with only 20 heavily damaged pieces. The Tyrannosaurus line of dinosaurs come from the same time period but we only have around 30 specimens over a period of 3 million years, and most of those are incomplete. It is reasonably possible that the humanoid dinosaurs haven't been found because enough of them weren't fossilised.


    Praetorian has asked me what the average score of season 1 would have been if The 37s, Projections, Elogium and Twisted had been included as originally intended, so here is some quick calculations that you all might be interested in:

    Season 1 with those four episodes included went from an average of 5.867 to 5.474, Projections really helped lessen the impact of the other crap episodes. Season 2 went from 4.692 to 4.818.

    However Basics Part 2, Flashback, False Profits and Sacred Ground were originally season 2 episodes that were held back into season 3, so if I add those into season 2 the new score is 4.5, which is even worse than the original score I gave season 2. That season just can't catch a break. ;)
     
  3. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    ^^^ I'd wondered about the seasonal scores with the episodes rearranged myself. Interesting. :)
     
  4. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Distant Origin

    This is a very good episode. Interesting to see a story from the other side of the spectrum, with aliens trying to prove some theory after encountering humans and also the thing with the authorities denying obvious facts and using opressive methods to win out the debate. Very smart plot and even if the episode is a bit slow in places, it's a well-written and thoughtful episode.

    I'll give it 4 points out of 5


    :eek:

    Is that really correct? I've never seen or heard anything about it.

    I know that "Projections", "Elogium", "Twisted" and "The 37's" were season 1 episodes which for some reasons were postponed to season 2 in the US. In most European countries they were aired as season 1 episodes and are still regarded as season 1 episodes. Another evidence for that are the stardates for the episodes which are season 1 stardates and Janeway is stating in "The 37's" that "It's 2371 now" which confirms "The 37's" as a season 1 episode.

    But I've never seen or heard that "Basics Part 2", "Flashback", "False Profits" and "Sacred Ground" were supposed to be season 2 episodes and the stardates for those episodes are definitely season 3 stardates, OK "Basics" is a cliffhanger with the first part in season 2 and the other in season 3 even if the stardate seem to be for 2373 (Stardate 50037.52 or 14th of January 2373).

    Can you mention a source for this because it's interesting news?

    Voyager seasons 1-3 Timeline: http://lynx677.110mb.com/timeline.html
     
  5. Akiraprise

    Akiraprise Vice Admiral Moderator

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Nah, I don't think so. I kind of like cutting game threads/ spammish threads off at 1000. But for legitimate threads with good discussion going on there's no harm anymore in letting them go on. The old board forced us to cut all threads off around 1000 posts. It's no longer an issue, as someone else already said.
     
  6. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Frankly, that doesn't sound much more advanced than Federation tech anyway, as beaming is still beaming at the root of it all. Beaming a ship seems pretty insignificant and inefficient compared to the race of floaty heads that amiably warped the Enterprise-D to the center of the galaxy, for example.
     
  7. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    "Basics Part 2", "Flashback", "False Profits" and "Sacred Ground" we're not originaly intended to be part of the Second Season (unlike the other epidodes which were intended to be part of the First Season but with a last minute decision changing that)...however there are indeed some anomalies in their production. Looking at the production number, Basics II was only made after the other 3. So it wouldn't surprised me that they were produced already in Season 2, but they were never supposed to air in Season 2 I think...

    This is my theory based on the rumours and logic =P
     
  8. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    There is this little bit of background info from Memory Alpha's article on The Chute:

    This was probably intentional and not a last minute decision like what happened in season 1, and I would assume that Basics was always intended as a cliffhanger ending. But if you pay attention at the end of those episodes you will see that Michael Piller is still credited as Executive Producer even though he left at the end of the second season. I agree that those episodes feel more like season 3 episodes, but they were produced under Michael Piller's watch so if I was to judge the show by production seasons rather than DVD seasons it would only be fair to include those as season 2 episodes.


    Well that's good, it seems like as if this thread will probably reach 3,000 posts before I'm finished so hopefully the board will be able to handle it.
     
  9. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I knew about this when they aired as well; it was discussed in many Trek magazines at the time; the episodes were produced in Season 2, but they were never meant to be Season 2 episodes. I read an interview at the time with Jeri Taylor where she discussed this, and how she disliked previous cliffhanger endings in which the writers left for the summer not knowing how the cliffhanger would resolve itself and she was part of the decision-making to have that not happen this time. Which allowed the writers to not be stressed about solving the cliffhanger, but instead allowed them to concentrate on the next new installment. I see her point...but I don't think think it helped Season 3 at all.
     
  10. freak

    freak Commodore Commodore

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    You know I actually agree with some posters on here about years five through seven being weaker than 1-3. :O
    And I also loved Time and Again..Tom's comment made me laugh and still does every time I see it.
     
  11. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    'The 37's' also makes more sense as the last episode of the first season. It acts as a bookend and consolidation to that first year, and reaffirms that they do still want to go home.
     
  12. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Ditto. I have never been very bothered by the 'dinosaur' issue, just the ones you mentioned. Overall, I really like what was done here.
     
  13. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Displaced (*½)

    That is a really stupid motivation, but the point of the Pakleds is that they were very stupid people and their motivation was supposed to be lacking, but it still makes more sense than the motivation the Nyrians have in this episode.

    They initiate a complicated plan in order to seize Voyager. Why? In order to use it to protect the ships the seize. So they seize ships in order to protect the ships they seized in order to protect the ships they seized in order to protect the ships they seized in order to protect the ships they seized in order to protect the ships they seized in order to protect the ships they seized in order to protect the ships they seized because... they were bored? :confused:

    And then you have to factor in that they built costly biospheres to keep the crews of the ships in, and they developed powerful technology in order to take control of the ships. Couldn't they have just built their own frakking ships? :wtf: Voyager doesn't appear to be as advanced as their technology anyway, so they could have used less resources to build a more powerful ship and they wouldn't have to deal with thousands of prisoners.

    There is absolutely no reason for the events of this episode to have happened.

    There's a little bit of enjoyment to be had in the first five minutes before the Nyrians turn evil for reasons which are never explained, and the Tom/B'Elanna scenes aren't too bad (and prevent me from docking marks for being a TNG episode), but the rest of it is stupid.
     
  14. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I absolutely hate 'Displaced.' :scream:

    The 'mystery' isn't very mysterious and the Nyrian plan makes no sense. Even the few redeeming moments don't do it for me. GodBen's score is too generous. I'd give it a half-star at most.
     
  15. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Voyager villains seem to usually lack something in motivation. It's always something paper thin, probably so that they can give an explanation for it while attempting to ensure that we don't start rooting for the bad guys.

    I think one and a half stars is about right for Displaced. I remember enjoying it when watching it, but it doesn't exactly hold up under scrutiny.
     
  16. Jaespol

    Jaespol Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I liked "Displaced", I thought it was some fun filler.
     
  17. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    My reaction exactly. I remember liking it. But when you actually think about it...there's no point. It's kind of funny actually. :lol:
     
  18. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Displaced

    I agree with some of GodBen's comments about the Nyrians and why they did take over the ship. Still I find this episode a bit exciting, entertaining and enjoyable in many ways.

    The Nyrians are actually a bit scary and the way they take over the ship is a bit exciting. The way Our Favorites finally escapes from the artificial world is exciting as well.

    I'll give this episode 3 points out of 5.
     
  19. Jaespol

    Jaespol Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    So what if there's no point?
    If you enjoy something then you enjoy something. There may have been some lapses in logic (although hardly as big as GodBen thinks) but if its enjoyable its enjoyable.
     
  20. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    "Distan Origin" is one of my favourite Star Trek episode ever! Yes, Dinosaurs evolving and leavinh Earth might seem silly, but this episode has everything I like. Great continuity, mistery, action and the most important thing... A point! Executed through a compelling alegory...
    And the focus on the Voth scientists in the first acts feels so fresh and different one can only enjoy this gem of an episode.
    Oh, and Chakotay gets something to do for a change...
    Very well done.

    "Real Life" was great too. The B-plot was nothing special but I found the anomaly somewhat interesting and the A-plot was both fun and dramatic. Yes, manipulative but then..which Tv Show or Movie isn't...?

    "Displaced"... Yes the Nyrians make no sense, and are very lame aliens (really..humans with funny hats? how original!) however I enjoyed the character interaction in this one, specially between Paris and Torres Fun filler I guess is apropriate.