A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Well said, GodBen. That in-depth analysis was spot-on in what was wrong with this episode.

    As do you: ;)

    I agree with that, too.

    What I got from it was a half-assed attempt at depicting a near-death experience in a sci-fi setting that was so self-indulgent in revelling in a supposedly clever nest of sci-fi cliches that it ended up delivering nothing. Even the character moments were stilted and poorly written.
     
  2. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    First off let it be known that I don't like "Coda" however some of your criticisms lobbied against it are bizarre.
    I never thought it was and you are the first person I've heard who has ever viewed it that way.
    This is a tv show. The lead players have to be front and center. It is contrived but so what. I think had the episode held your attention then this would have been mitigated.
    Apparently not, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it as a weakness of the episode. I never had an issue with the replenishing of shuttlecrafts.
    It didn't bother me anymore than when say the Romulans were little more than a plot device in TNG's "The Next Phase".
    I think this is more to do with you as a viewer than the scene itself. I certainly never saw it as a way to negatively portray euthanasia. It was simply a scene played for dark comedy and nothing more. Sometimes fans tend to project way more than they should and make something out of nothing in the process.
    This I agree with.
    Yes the memorial scene failed because it didn't emotionally resonate. It felt hollow and it certainly didn't help when the characters had very little history together.
    The best part of Blood Fever was the last minute of the show and it was yet another case of the misleading UPN promos pulling a bait-and-switch. We tune in for the Borg and end up with a silly romance show where B'elanna pants for the better part of an hour like a dog. Ugh.
     
  3. PolloCaballo

    PolloCaballo Ensign Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager


    Ewww.... what creepy, sexual deviant-populated planet do you live on that you got that from this scene?

    You're gross, man.
     
  4. Jaespol

    Jaespol Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I didn't see any sexual innuendo either.
    Maybe GodBen should stop watching episodes when he's both horny and uncomfortable/restless. Than might stop him from labelling good episodes sexual and boring.
     
  5. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    In self defence, I'm a fairly bizarre person in general is it is par for the course. :) After all, you wouldn't be surprised if you heard Hitler say something anti-Semitic.

    Watch it again and you'll see it. ;) I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the fact is that there is no other reason I could think of as to why Neelix didn't say "I thought last night's talent show went well, didn't you?" The fact that those words were relegated to the second scene suggests that the intention was to misdirect the audience into thinking something else, and the actor's mannerisms suggests it was done for comic effect.

    I'm genuinely curious, did anybody else read this scene the way I did or do you think I'm way off the reservation?

    While I would agree generally, in this case the lapse in logic was so blatant that I would have noticed it anyway. Plot drove character, character didn't drive plot and there was barely any attempt to explain why.

    I have a big issue with it, and I mentioned the shuttle-crash because a) it was a major plot-point and there is no way I could ignore it, and b) shuttle-crashes on this show have become a running joke.

    Except the Romulans in The Next Phase acted like Romulans, they didn't act like storm-troopers.

    If there was a scene in the show which showed gay marriage as somehow invalidating straight marriages, or a scene advocating white supremacy, then I would have a violently negative reaction to it. It doesn't matter if it was played for laughs, if something is propagating a vile misconception then I will rally against it.

    And I just found my new location. :techman:
     
  6. Jaespol

    Jaespol Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I honestly think you just have a dirty mind :S
     
  7. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Come on, it's full of double entendres! What's the actual context though? What was Janeway "especially good" at last night?
     
  8. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I believe she did a ballet at the talent show, while Tuvok did some boring poetry reading.


    Blood Fever (***)


    A great episode? No. A fun episode which has some good character moments. I think so. Depending upon how you view it I suppose you could just remember this episode as the one where B'Elanna runs around in a sweaty tank-top trying to get laid, but I think there was something more here. Tom in particular comes across as a very good character, the white-knight who refuses to give into what he wants because he values B'Elanna too much. He reminds me of myself...

    Okay fine, I would have nailed her like there was no tomorrow, but I would have felt bad about it afterwards. You know, after I told everybody on the ship. :techman:

    My big problem with the episode is the ending because it is yet another cop-out. Firstly, Vorik somehow beams down to the planet and prevents Voyager from contacting the away team or sending down a team using transporters or shuttles. How dumb is this crew that they can be out-witted by a sex-craved Vulcan? Oh right, they were outwitted by the Ferengi only a few weeks ago.

    But the biggest problem is the fact that both B'Elanna and Vorik's pon farr goes away after a short fist-fight. 45 minutes and that is all that needed to happen? Of course this is just a way of writing themselves out of having to deal with the consequences of having B'Elanna sleeping with Tom or Vorik, or B'Elanna killing Vorik. It feels like a cheat ending because that's what it is.


    Unity (****)

    Ah, back when the Borg were still terrifying. I remember jumping out of my chair when watching this as a kid and the Borg cube appeared on screen. :eek:

    I only have minor issues with this episode, such as how Riley was assimilated at Wolf 359 and not killed when that cube exploded, or the red-shirt death at the beginning. I also think this episode would have been better if the cooperative had always planned to take control of Chakotay if Janeway rejected their proposal, because the episode seems to imply that they did it because they were under attack and about to be killed. I'm also confused as to why they are back in the Nekrit Expanse when there wasn't a mention of it in the last two episodes, but at least this was a small nod toward continuity.

    But other than those issues I found this to be a very good episode, the best of the season so far. It is a good use for Chakotay as a character, it is a good Borg episode and it has some neat foreshadowing for Scorpion. And I love the ending sentiment of the episode, things aren't neatly wrapped up and there is the possibility that things could go badly in this region of space because of Voyager's presence.
     
  9. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I can't believe you gave this episode 3 stars. I didn't care for it. First off the promo made it seem as if the episode was going to focus on the Borg. Instead, a corpse shows up at the end. Another mark against the UPN promo department was the fact that it gave away the reveal of the Borg so the whole episode we knew that the attackers of the alien of the week we meet were the Borg totally undermining the impact.

    But even once you get past the way the anticipation of encountering the Borg overshadowed the episode and you look at the episode in its own right it comes off very shallow. Trek doesn't have a good record with romances and I never really cared all that much for Paris & Torres. I could definitely see why Brannon would go onto later push them aside and not dedicate too much focus on them. So to see them struggling with these sexual feelings for one another certainly wasn't very interesting.
    Which is pretty shallow when it comes to characterization which is why Paris, Neelix, Kim, Chakotay and Tuvok were some of the least interesting characters to watch.

    I couldn't care less about Vorik and that false jeopardy. The only highlight was B'elanna itching to kick his ass. Neelix getting injured was unnecessary and just made his character that much more irritating. Despite the intention of creating a deadline, there was no suspense or sense of jeopardy in the least. The Doctor creating a holo-partner for Vorik fell flat despite its cute intentions.

    And the aliens were just not that compelling. Not surprisingly the only life in this episode was a lifeless corpse.
    I'd give it 2 stars. It's a loser.
    I remember hearing about the Borg coming to Voyager in February and I couldn't wait. After such a dismal run of mediocre episodes I was finally actually anticipating a Voyager episode. It wasn't nearly as good as I had hoped.
    I agree. A major plothole. Usually I can overlook nits but this was a major one given how "The Best of Both Worlds" was such a monumental event and everyone remembers the cube being destroyed.

    I also had a problem with the way they suggested that the Collective Consciousness was telepathic in nature when clearly in BoBW it was stated that it was form of subspace communications.
    I loved how the Nekrit Expanse marked the end of friendly territory for the crew and the end of where Neelix's knowledge would assist the crew. From here on out they would all be truly entering the unknown dark frontier. This episode was fantastic in creating a terrifyingly creepy mood and atmosphere that permeated the entire hour. There is something about crossing paths with a Borg cube that sends chills up your spine. And it is just as effective here when Voyager runs into one as back in "Q Who? or "The Best of Both Worlds". And another "take notice" moment was when the cube powered back up and came to life. Very effective.

    At first, I was going to have a problem with the fact that these ex-Borg regained their original memories and identities as well as their skin tone given that the liberated Borg in TNG's Descent didn't and had no idea how to function as individuals. However, Biller circumvented that with the unique way they were freed. Unfortunately, being de-assimilated would become a cakewalk in years to come.

    And I would argue that the episode didn't exactly foreshadow "someone more powerful than the Borg". Afterall, the original plan was for this to be the last episode we saw of the Borg this season and "Year of Hell" was the intended finale but understandably at the last minute in an effort to salvage the show the writers shelved that finale and brought back the Borg. In the TVGUide article from back then Jeri Taylor said that they had realized "Unity" had not been that satisfying and wanted to really bring back the Borg full force.

    I'd give it just three stars. It's good but not 4-star material.
     
  10. Dane_Whitman

    Dane_Whitman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Uh, no man... Usually I can see the points you make, but this one eludes me.:lol:
     
  11. Jaespol

    Jaespol Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Another great couple of season 3 episodes. Season 3 sure is grrreat!
     
  12. startrekwatcher

    startrekwatcher Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    You have to be joking, right? I actually find season three to be the worst for VOY and one of the absolute worsts in all of Trek. In fact, around "Rise" was the first time I truly considered ever giving up on a Trek series. Had it not been for the Borg finale I probably would have stopped watching it altogether.
     
  13. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Blood Fever

    This episode is definitely the worst episode of season 3 and much worse than the bottom-rated "Threshold" of season 2 and "Emanations" of season 1.

    Take the following ingredients:

    1. A badly written rape-story

    2. Our Favorites behaves like idiots

    3. Vorik is one of the main characters

    4. The over-used Borg are introducted to Voyager at the end.

    Mix that and you get a horrible story where a married Vulcan is trying to rape a female officer (and gets away with it), where it seems to be OK to try to beat up the female officer if she refuses to have sex and where the female officer, infected with some "mind bug" is begging another fellow male officer for sex.

    Rubbish.

    I'll give it 1 point out of 5

    Unity

    Despite my doubts about the Borg, which started already in TNG wit the introduction of such characters as Hugh and the Borg Queen, what we have here is actually a rather good Borg story and a good Chakotay story as well. There are some interesting twists and turns here which makes this episode exciting.

    Enjoyable and exciting.

    I'll give it 3 points out of 5.
     
  14. BurnedPike

    BurnedPike Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I love Voyager.
     
  15. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Agreed. The thing about this ep that bugged me the most was that the pon farr was 'communicable' from a Vulcan to a non-Vulcan. The combat-as-purge bothered me somewhat, but not that much. And Tom got to be a good guy. You're definitely right that they compromised on having a 'happy' ending rather than a logical one.

    Yeah, this one was awesome. I had the same reaction to the cube. The Borg 'outcasts' were compelling and Chakotay had stuff to do.

    (I personally believe that the Borg sent an assimilated Starfleet ship back from Wolf 359 when the Feds were distracted crapping their pants. Makes sense, and would have taken only a line to establish. :shifty:)
     
  16. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager


    Oh man... :guffaw:
     
  17. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Ah! I liked Blood Fever too...It's Amok Time..in the Delta Quadrant! Cheesy fight included..
    I agree with the criticisms about the ending however.

    Unity was a great episode. The Borg were indeed scary back then.
     
  18. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    This season is currently scoring 3.8/10 and I'm about to watch a sequence of episodes which has been labelled the Triumvirate of Terror™. In my opinion, this season may just be beyond redemption. :(

    Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but nothing is as bad as Threshold. Threshold is the low point of all non-reality television.

    I didn't see it as an allegory for rape, I just saw it as a pon farr episode. Maybe I'm just too steeped in the mythos of this franchise? :lol:

    It wasn't their finest hour, I agree.

    I actually enjoyed that, they should have focused on minor characters more often. Garak was only on DS9 3 times when they decided to base The Wire around him, and that was his breakout episode. Vorik had appeared in two episodes before this and while he was never going to be as good as Garak (nobody can be) it was nice of them to give him a shot.

    They weren't overused at that point, the Borg were still fresh and interesting during Voyager's third season. They had appeared in six episodes of TNG (one per season excluding the first year), they had a cameo at the beginning of Emissary and they had one movie. It was Voyager who overused the Borg when they introduced Seven.

    Howdy. :)

    It is a bit convenient, but if Tuvok can become murderous after melding with Suder, or Picard can become extremely emotional after melding with Sarek, then it isn't unreasonable to believe that Vorik had a similar impact upon B'Elanna. That's the great/stupid thing about mind-melds, they can do whatever the writer desires that week. ;)

    That's one explanation. Another possibility is that the cube at 359 had a sphere docked within it like the one in FC and they sent that back to the DQ. Why they would do that I don't know, I think the story would have been better if the humans had been abducted from the colonies destroyed in The Neutral Zone.

    I take it you disagree? ;)
     
  19. Jaespol

    Jaespol Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Mang, you season 3 haters just don't know where its at!
    Season 3 was a great season. It just good because there were no big arcs or grand schemes, it was just the Voyager crew getting on with their journey and their lives. No Borg to worry about, no Kazon, just plain sailing with some fun adventures/instances along the way!

    Memorable episodes:

    The Chute
    Remember
    Sacred Ground
    Warlord
    Coda
    Blood Fever
    Unity
    The Darkling
    Before and After
    Real Life
    Distant Origin
    Displaced
    Worst Case Scenario
    Scorpion Part I

    In my opinion, all of the above were all good episodes.
    Season 3 was the beginning of a huge upturn for Voyager going on to an even better Season 4 and 5, two awesome seasons of Trek.
    I don't see why anyone would have problems with the above episodes except for ridiculously nitpicky reasons such as "too much sexual innuendo between Neelix and Janeway!", "We didn't see both sides of the story!", "The time loops were irrelevant! (who cares if they were good to watch eh?" or one of my least favorite "No way can dinosaurs have evolved like that, thats just impossiblz!!!111".
    Just sit back, relax your brain and enjoy some fun science fiction people because that's what season 3 offers!
    And just look at the run of episodes starting from "Before and After" to the finale, they were really getting their groove on at this point.
    Also, I don't see why "The Darkling" is in the triumvirate of terror, its a pretty decent. "Rise" and "Favorite Son" are obviously horrible though and I wasn't fond of "Future's End".
     
  20. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Half a season of good episodes does not make it great really...But then, to me, most Trek Seasons only have half a season of good episodes...so it's par for the course I guess...

    However, Season 3 manages to make a come back in the end, with five really good episodes, leading to the best season of Voyager.

    "Darkling" is another silly "hologram malfunction" show. Or even "artificial lifeform malfunction" (I'm looking at you Data). Hence it was mostly pointless.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2009