A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Agreed. I can't stand this episode. Before it aired, this was another episode that I was hoping to enjoy, what with the crossover from Next Generation's "The Price" and my love for many of (though not all of) the DS9 Ferengi themed episodes. What we got was almost unwatchable. I rewatched the first 4 seasons of Voyager a few years ago, and I had to shut this one off. Ugh.

    I'd rate this one higher (***). I just think the message of the episode is so powerful (and important) that it trumps the negatives of the episode. And I love B'Elanna and Janeway here - and at this point in the series I was happy with any nice Janeway moments. All the Voyager crewmembers seem to be sane. It's not an amazing episode, but it's an important episode, and to me that makes it worthwhile. If they had strived to do more important episodes, even if they'd failed, the series would have been better off IMO, if that makes any sense. So many times they have a crap episode and I don't even get the point of it - or I do get the point, but it's a fairly stupid one. The more I think about this episode, the more it feels like a Season 1 effort, which from me, is a compliment.
     
  2. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Yes, I hated "False Profits", but I remember enjoying "Remember"! =P
     
  3. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Sacred Ground (*½)

    For an episode about learning to let go of science, there sure was a lot of technobabble going on here.

    I am a skeptical atheist and I don't see any reason to believe in supernatural entities, but I'm not too bothered if a work of fiction goes beyond the realm of scientific understanding if it does so in an interesting way. I don't need a scientific explanation for most things in Star Trek, especially not when the scientific explanation is just a bunch of futuristic sounding words stuck together in a sentence which makes no sense.

    The whole episode beats you over the head with the idea that science can't explain everything and that sometimes you just need to take a leap of faith, and I'm okay with that, it is something which I have felt for some time now. So my big problem with this episode is that Shmullus gives a scientific explanation at the end which apparently makes perfect sense. Why? That is like spending a day training a dog not to jump up on the furniture, and once he finally learned his lesson you pat your hand on the couch and tell him to jump up. It is a cop-out of an ending which suggests to me that the writer of the episode feared they couldn't pull off what the whole episode had been about.

    My other big problem is that Janeway didn't come to her conclusion on her own, she needed it spelled out to her by Statler and Waldorf and Kia Winn's sister. For this story to work she needed to come to the conclusion on her own, having it explained to her damages the episode.

    This also feels very much like a TNG episode, and even though it focuses on Janeway I don't think it explored her personality enough that this episode couldn't have been about Picard on the Enterprise. It is a tough call to make, it is right on the borderline, but I eventually decided to dock it half a star.


    Note about the situation with Shmullus: I said after The Swarm that I would be docking marks if future episodes did not explain what happened to him. I have not taken away any marks for that yet because Some of you said that there would be a reference to that in Future's End, so I am waiting to see what happens in those episodes. If I don't find the follow-up to be satisfactory then I will dock half a star from Future's End.
     
  4. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Ditto. It's watchable - maybe a little more so than 'Remember' if only because it is more ambitious in what it's trying to do. It had a pretty clever premise, but like you so aptly described, fumbled the execution, especially at the end. The Doctor's explanation for why Janeway's leap of faith worked ultimately undermined the experience and made Janeway look stupid. (I'd have preferred she cut him off in mid-sentence at the end as he began explaining.) The episode could have had also more resonance had Janeway's letting go of science been related metaphoricaly to the theme of 'we're not in the Alpha Quadrant anymore and we have to adapt' - but it wasn't.

    One thing I did enjoy particularly was that all Janeway actually had to do was sit down with the old folks. She put herself through all that crap because she refused to see what was directly in front of her. That, to me, is the strength of the episode - the message to not ignore what's right in front of you simply because of what you've been taught to expect or deal with. It's from that theme that this episode could have derived greater resonance.
     
  5. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    And, of course, they ignored that the ship supposedly has a mystic on board: Chakotay.

    Instead of taking the side of spirituality, he's a nervous Nellie worried about Janeway going too far.

    *sigh*

    My poor, brave Indian, castrated by Jeri Taylor so that her Female Captain can look perfect.

    Which ends up diminishing the Captain in the end.
     
  6. Jimmy Bob

    Jimmy Bob Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Remember sucks.

    Hello sir, I'm here to say that you are wrong. But first... let me congratulate you on your excellent thread. In fact it was because of you I became a regular reader of this place, since I was about to watch through the entire Voyager almost at the same time as you... with the difference that I'm a first-time watcher and slightly ahead of you... anyway I never intended to join as I always agreed with you with you anyway and I would have just been a waste of forum space... but you managed to irritate me enough with your complete disregard of Remember.

    So sir, you are so wrong that you give all people who are wrong a bad name. You are wrong because Remember is one of the best Voyager episodes yet. Firstly, it gave the actor actual acting gig - Roxanne really became that girl - which I've noticed Voyager doesn't too very often. Secondly, the "Yes! Yes! Yes!" scene was beautiful poetic "shit bitch" moment. Thirdly - since quite a few countries in the world don't admit their parts in genocides, war crimes, participations in bad things (funding other governments who solve poverty by killing the poor for example) and prefer to portray themselves as "the good folk who are obviously blessed by God and righteousness" - or even if they admit, they still prefer to continue with righteousness attitude and just shrug it off as a necessity of progress or something else (all these things took place in this episode in some form or another) - it's the role of a socially responsible entertainer/artist to remind that this still exists and is still going on. Just about any book on historiography will give great examples of these things.

    Also, Star Trek - being a socialist utopia of fairness and justice - could never say things like "in some cases though, genocide is great fun - like killing injuns for example, because who of us don't like them good old John Wayne movies" as you seem to be implying what you wanted to see in the episode. So obviously genocide is wrong in Trek-universe, because building rightousness and romantical images of idyll on the dead raped bodies of your innocent victims is called bullshit and a wrong one too.

    And I didn't feel as Remember was preachy or anything. It just showed it. It was more of an illustration of all similar situations in earth history. That B'Elanna storms the party to say "Bullshit is what you say and bullshit is what you are!!!" didn't feel to me as we were supposed to rage with fury with B'Elanna. I mean, Janeway facepalmed... with just her eyes, but it were those "facepalm" eyes.

    And another thing - to say that Janeway treating those aliens harshly after B'Elanna is like treating a young teenager jap wrong because of WWII because is the same is wrong, because that episode strongly indicated, that the old aliens were directly involved in those events. So it's more like treating coldly someone who participated in the Rape of Nanking and portraying himself as the embodiement of idyllic life and traditional family values, than treating coldly someone who is probably more versed in anime than you are.

    Also, if I were you, I'd add 0.5 stars if the episode gives the actor actual acting to do - whether the script evolved the character or not. End of rant.

    Sacred Grounds sucks, but it's better than Remember.

    I agree with sucking, but to say that one of the most mediocre episodes of Voyager is better than one of the best Voyager episodes is illogical. :vulcan:

    I loved the three old people, brilliant actors with that good calming presence. But other than that, Sacred Grounds is one of the typical New Age spiritualism episodes that the late 90's saw in many shows. I also like how Trek spent so much of it's time to destroy everything supernatural about the universe and then tries to bring the supernatural back by dabbling in cheap paperpack esotericism books spirituality.
     
  7. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Aye, "Sacred Ground" is an episode I never enjoyed...and "Remember" one that left a lasting impression...

    However Jimmy Boy you might have gotten a little too personal in your criticizing of GodBen's position...
    One must try to be civil in such discussions...
     
  8. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    DISCLAIMER: It is 03:47 and I am rather drunk after having just arrived home. I am ignoring the advice I normally give while sober (that you should never post after drinking) in order to defend my honour, so please excuse any typos or sentences which don't make any purple banana sense monkey.

    It wouldn't be the first time. :)

    Whooo! :D

    Oh, I'm sorry. :( I'll try to make it up to you some day.

    It wasn't complete disregard, I gave it 3/10 and thought out two posts on why I found it lacking. If you want to see an episode which I completely disregarded then take a look at my review of Threshold.

    Yeah, but I also give people called Ben a bad name. And I give Irish people a bad name. Actually, I give a bad name to anybody who can be associated with me. And tortoises, for some odd reason which I could never figure out. :confused:

    I disagree, but do go on.

    Yes, she played the role very nicely, that earned the episode 1 star.

    I don't remember that scene, so obviously it didn't have an impact upon me.

    And the idea to explore this issued earned the episode its second star. (Remember, half a star was deducted due to being a TNG-style episode.)

    :wtf: Now I'm lost.

    If you are referring to my joke about wanting to kill all conservative people then that was a joke, as evidenced by the fact that I was advocating killing millions of innocent people.

    And I've never watched a single John Wayne film.

    Genocide is wrong in most universes. Except maybe that universe with the Clangers, we could do without those bastards and their constant whistling.

    Lots of modern democracies saw vile acts during the struggle for their foundation, including my own. That doesn't make the acts right, but it doesn't invalidate the society which forms from them.

    And that is the big problem with the episode; it just showed it. There was no evidence that these acts ever occurred, all we have to support this version of history is the telepathically transplanted memory of an old woman close to death. My grandmother has enough trouble remembering what she did last week, I certainly wouldn't expect her to remember events which happened when she was a teenager.

    If the episode had used the memories as the jumping-off point to find evidence of the massacre then it would be fine, but instead the episode saw fit to judge a whole society based on little more than an emotional plea. That's not good enough.

    Except in the scene in the ready-room Janeway clearly supports B'Elanna and it seems very much like as if Janeway has decided to end relations with the aliens as quickly as possible. That is how I read that scene.

    Once again, there is no evidence to back this up.

    DS9's Duet is a fantastic episode which has been praised enough on this board. When Kira believes that the Cardassian they have locked up was involved in the massacre at Galitep she prematurely judges him and she wants him to die for his crimes. But that episode used the emotional reaction as the beginning of an investigation into the man's identity and he was eventually found to be innocent.

    You should never judge somebody based on premature conclusions, and you certainly shouldn't judge them based purely on an emotional reaction.

    I don't remember saying that, and I actually gave both episodes the same score; two stars, half a star deducted for being TNG-lite.


    Okay, it is 04:33 now, time for some sleep, methinks. Thank you for reading and good night! :techman:
     
  9. Jaespol

    Jaespol Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Whats with all the frickin analysing? Why don't you just rate it on the enjoyability factor?
    Remember was a great episode! Who cares if we didn't get to see how those people lived? The old lady who transplanted the memory didn't see everything that was going on, obviously all we got to see was what she had experienced in her life. Its unrealistic to say we should have seen the entire story whenever the old lady never did.
    It was just a really good episode.
    I also enjoyed Sacred Ground. Season 3 is a very good season.
     
  10. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    This is a thread about analyzing Voyager - not analyzing it would be ignoring the basic premise of the thread.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    The basic premise of the forum and the basic premise of the Internet and the basic premise of life.
     
  12. The Grim Ghost

    The Grim Ghost Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Sacred Ground just straight out pisses me off.

    Why don't these people keep dangerous areas sealed off from outsiders?

    Why do these stupid people make Janeway jump through hoops to solve a problem that they created? Why are they so into playing headgames with people who aren't involved with their stupid religion?

    What kind of message is this? Science can't solve everything. Great. Maybe science can't solve everything, but superstitious garbage solves NOTHING. Except in this episode I guess it does.

    I hate hate hate this episode. It is in my top 10 most disliked Voyager episodes easily.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Think how much Janeway psychopolar bullshit we would have been spared in later years if the rest button had not annihilated this object lesson from Janeways skillset?
     
  14. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    "Sacred Ground" is an OK episode.

    A bit slow in places and somewhat confusing but I like the fact that it shows Janeway being ready to sacrifice herself to save a member of her crew. Now, that's one of the things I like best with Janeway, he concern for her crewmembers.

    Chakotay's concern for Janeway was also heart-warming. :)

    I'll give the episode 3 points out of 5.
     
  15. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I can't help but think this was a reference to me saying this about 'Sacred Ground':

     
  16. Jimmy Bob

    Jimmy Bob Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    No, it wasn't personal but more of humorous exaggeration. Re-read it in John Cleese's voice, perhaps that will help to make the intended tone clearer.

    "Now I'm lost.

    If you are referring to my joke about wanting to kill all conservative people then that was a joke, as evidenced by the fact that I was advocating killing millions of innocent people.

    And I've never watched a single John Wayne film."


    I was refering to this: "For all we know the propaganda could be true, they could be unruly and trying to bring down normal society."

    And this: "As I also said, the episode doesn't show us what life was like for these Regressives, we are just led to believe that they weren't really a threat to society. I don't agree with the death penalty, but I could understand why some societies would use it if there was extremist groups trying to undermine society."

    Which to me reads: "In some cases genocide is great fun" and so I paraphrased it in humorous exaggeration.

    I said how in the episode, a romantic idyll was created out of what really happened.

    America has created a romantic idyll out of Wild West - of the progress of civilization, of Manifest Destiny, of uncivilized non-humans and great manly men who stand behind traditional american values, the idea that there has always been an american and like every american he surfs the chaos to bring order.

    This romantic idyll has been built on the annihiliation of entire nations - but who cares - because westerns are so much fun. So what I was doing is that I said that your quotes above me sound like that: "sometimes genocide is great fun, especially if a brilliant romantic idyll is created out of that - like the early westerns."

    "Lots of modern democracies saw vile acts during the struggle for their foundation, including my own. That doesn't make the acts right, but it doesn't invalidate the society which forms from them."

    Yes it does, if them vile acts are hushed over to portray the founders as representatives of traditional idyllic family values and so on. "Thou shallt not built your house on bullshit, for bullshit is not solid, but on truth" it's in the bible somewhere.

    "I can't help but think this was a reference to me saying this about 'Sacred Ground"

    Yes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2009
  17. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Well roughly 6 million years ago a group of apes broke away and started using their brains rather than relying purely upon instinct, and eventually they evolved into a species known as homo sapiens sapiens, which roughly translates into "very wise man". I personally find that name to be incredibly arrogant and demonstrably false, but that doesn't stop me from attempting to live up to it.

    I do, and I have previously pointed out that I only start nit-picking episodes if I don't find it entertaining enough to prevent me from doing so. I didn't find Remember to be entertaining enough to stop me from poking holes in it while I was watching, and that resulted in me enjoying it less than I should have.

    Me.

    And the biased viewpoint of one person is not a good standpoint to judge an entire civilisation.

    Which is why the episode shouldn't have judged an entire civilisation.


    :wtf: I'm still lost. How can that possibly be paraphrased into "genocide is fun"?

    The Regressives could have been like the Amish in that they were a community which shunned modern technology and lifestyles, or they could have been like Islamic extremists who commit vile acts because they want to transform western society into their narrow vision of the world. Without exploring the Regressives properly we have no way of knowing which of these two groups they were closest to, so it is impossible to judge the supposed atrocities.

    If you were to suggest to me that we should kill all the Amish because you fear their lifestyle then I would oppose you and think you are dangerous. If you were to suggest to me that we should kill all Islamic extremists because you fear them then I would also oppose you but I would understand your viewpoint and wouldn't judge you so harshly.

    My position is a far cry from "genocide is fun", when it comes to matters like this I view them very soberly.

    The Bible holds no weight with me.

    Every country in the world does this. You rightly said that the Americans do this, the British largely ignore most of the atrocities performed in the name of their empire, and there was horrible actions performed during Ireland's war of independence. It still doesn't invalidate the liberal democratic societies which those countries now are.

    I saw a TV show once which told the story of a horrible act performed during the Irish WoI. There was a rich protestant who had a farm near a village of mostly catholics, and during the WoI there was rumours that the protestant land-owner may have been informing the British forces about members of the IRA. So the IRA and the catholics in the village stormed into his house, captured the family and burned the house down. They decided to execute the land-owner and his son, so they lined them up and shot them... in the balls. They left them to bleed to death with the most agonising pain imaginable over the next two days. Even if the man was guilty, and there is no evidence that he was, there is no way he deserved such a horrible death.

    But I'm glad that there was a war of independence, even though I am sure there was many such vile acts carried out in the name of Irish freedom. Today is apparently the 60th anniversary of Ireland becoming a republic, and that wouldn't have happened had it not been for that war.
     
  18. Jimmy Bob

    Jimmy Bob Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    And the biased viewpoint of one person is not a good standpoint to judge an entire civilisation.

    Which is why the episode shouldn't have judged an
    entire civilisation.

    When did the episode ever do that?

    As for the rest of it, I still have the feeling that you would have rather seen them as islamic extremists, since the episode did strongly suggest that they were more like the Amish.

    Because think about it - would extremists have let themselves being cattled of like sheep to the slaughterhouse?

    The bible holds no weight with me.

    Because it wasn't... ah never mind.

    Every country in the world does this.

    As I already said in my first post. And why I feel that a socially responsible entertainment should remind us this question - that how true the images of our heroic past really are. Propaganda of the past has a tendency to reappear in the most ugliest ways. Modern day Russia has adapted the image of World War II of the stalinistic propaganda movies, rather than the less-glorious and more accurate version.

    Better example: Hollywood produes a film after film of the evil of Nazi's, letting everyone forget that America too had concentration camps in World War II, as it was the contemporary zeitgeist. Everyone had them, but giving the nazi's more spotlight gives us the chance to forget our own evils in WWII.

    To me, Remember worked as that sort of illustration. To you it didn't. We both raised our voices and raged (or not, raged just rhymes with raised), now let's end this at Future's End.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2009
  19. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    When Janeway failed to chastise B'Elanna for her actions in the mess hall. When Janeway sympathised with B'Elanna's viewpoint and suggested that she take her case to one of the aliens before they leave the ship. You know, that whole final act.

    It has nothing to do with what way I wanted the Regressives to be portrayed, I just wanted them to be shown to me as the society they were supposed to be rather than only seeing lover-boy. I can't judge a group of people based off of experiences with one individual, that is a message that Star Trek has shoved down my throat time and again, except in this case where they do just the opposite.

    Answer me this; would it have ruined the episode from your point of view if they had one lousy scene where B'Elanna went to see lover-boy in his home and saw how these people lived? They didn't do that and it is a failing on the part of this episode that it chose not to explore the social issue as well as it should have.

    If people with guns told them to do so and they had no choice... well, they'd have no choice.

    Fine, it worked for you and it didn't work for me. That doesn't make me wrong, it just means that I wanted something more than what we got. It failed to satisfy my demands.

    I just finished watching Future's End, Part 1 and I'm still thinking about it. The score is still in a state of flux.
     
  20. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    The man who brought you Threshold joins forces for the very first time with the man who brought you False Profits in order to bring you...

    Future's End, Part 1 (**)

    There is a popular PC strategy series called Civilization which has a peculiar trait when it comes to combat; every once in a while a modern battleship can be destroyed by a bronze-age spearman unit. When you think about this logically you realise that this is impossible; how does a group of men armed only with spears destroy a ship that could blow them away before they could even see it? Subsequent releases of the game tried to fix this problem, but every once in a while a spearman can still defeat a unit of tanks even though the probability of such an event is estimated as 0.0%.

    The reason I bring this up is that Voyager somehow manages to beat a 29th century spaceship with the magical power of its deflector dish. Can you imagine a 16th century warship managing to defeat a modern destroyer craft? Or a WWI biplane managing to shoot down a F-16? You may think I am over-analysing the situation, but these were the thoughts going through my head during the scene where Braxton shows up in his time-ship and I found it to be incredibly distracting for the rest of the episode.

    One thing which bugs me about Captain Braxton and his 29th century timeship is the dramatic implications this has for any future Star Trek series. We now know that the Federation will still be in existence in the 29th century, so any threat against the future of Earth or the human race is made less interesting because we know that everything will be okay. This was one of the big problems with the Xindi arc in Enterprise, and I honestly feel the Dominion War arc on DS9 suffered a little because Voyager had already confirmed that the Feds will win. This may seem like a really stupid thing to complain about, particularly within the context of Voyager, but it has bugged me for years.

    And I'm not a big fan of time travel in general, I feel that Trek completely over-used the concept. I think that time travel should be reserved only for really original ideas, and Star Trek IV already did the Trek in a contemporary setting thing and it did it much better.

    The episode itself is pleasant enough once it gets to 1996 Earth, although I would hardly consider it spectacular. If it wasn't for all the complaints I posted above I would probably give the episode 3.5 stars, but I feel that each of these complaints amounts to a half-star deduction because of how much they irritate me personally.