A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN USA
    Yikes! Don't tell me I was the one who started that. :o

    Getting older is not fun...
     
  2. Tallis Rhul

    Tallis Rhul Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Location:
    Rakantha Province
    Isn't The The a band?
     
  3. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Huzzah, it has been changed! :D Now I wont need to worry about people calling me GodBen again. :)
     
  4. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Location:
    basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
    You are aware you've got five stars next to Threshold? A joke, or just a typo? :rommie:
     
  5. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Hey! Who did that?! :klingon:
     
  6. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    What Seven sacrificing herself says is that the only way she can be truly human is to sacrifice herself. There's no redemption for her in living.

    That's bullshit--and violates the optimistic view that Trek's always been about.
     
  7. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Spock died, Yar died, Jadzia died... People die, it's the one thing that all of us have in common. I don't see how it goes against Trek's optimistic take of the future to say that people die, but I do think it would be thoroughly depressing to live in a world where nobody dies.
     
  8. Akiraprise

    Akiraprise Vice Admiral Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    kimc...:devil:
     
  9. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN USA
    Hey, I'm not the mod with the history of modifying things in this thread!
     
  10. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    I thought that's what "mod" was short for.
     
  11. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2008
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    You know, you might...

    Just guessin' here.
     
  12. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2008
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    No, it wouldn't say she can only be human that way - not necessarily. You wouldn't like it and possibly I wouldn't either - I'm not generally a big fan of character death, though I concede that it does have its place in good drama - but it wouldn't necessarily say that. It would show that that's one way to be truly human, but that wouldn't mean it's the only way.

    What else it said would depend a lot on how it was written and acted. Lots of thoroughly human characters in fiction and people in real life have sacrificed themselves for others, after all.

    But you know that people do die in Trek and in other fictional works, too, including characters that we really care about. Having beloved characters die isn't always incompatible with basic optimism. Thorin dies in The Hobbit - does that violate the basic premise of The Hobbit and LOTR that good can triumph over evil?
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  13. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Location:
    basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
    Last edited by Akiraprise; September 1 2009 at 09:54 AM.
    :evil:
     
  14. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Well that's the last straw, this means war against the Voyager forum! Niners attack!!! :mad:







    The Niner army will get here soon enough, and then you'll be sorry!










    They sure are taking their time though. :alienblush:
     
  15. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    They had to refill on ketracel white, and the Vorta keeps drawing the ritual out...
     
  16. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
    It's not that someone dies that would bother me--I was widowed at 46 and worked in oncology for years, so yes, I am well aware of the fact that people die.

    However, to say that the *only* way Seven can redeem herself after her time as a Borg is to sacrifice herself for the crew is beyond cynical.

    IMO, and I doubt you will agree. After all, you gave Tattoo reasonably high marks when I found it demeaning garbage. ;)
     
  17. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    As I have said, over and over and over and over and over and over....

    I was widowed at 46. I worked as a cancer epidemiologist for years. I am more than aware that people die and what the repercussions are for the people around them. I don't mind character death in stories.

    It is the idea--and Braga made it clear that this *was* the idea--that Seven can only find redemption by sacrificing herself.

    IMO, that is bullshit.

    YMMV and probably does.
     
  18. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2008
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Well, granted that Braga said this - did GodBen? (The GodBen, I should say?) If so I missed it. In any case, all I meant was that, at least in theory, Seven's death need not necessarily be treated that way.

    Yes, I know about your views on character death - that's why I was more than a bit surprised by the vehemence of your post.
     
  19. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN USA
    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I don't recall Braga stating it that way but I would need to double-check my Season 7 interviews to be sure. The way I recall it was "Human Error" was to be the start of a tragic arc for Seven that would culminate with her death in the finale but I don't remember "find redemption by sacrificing herself" being mentioned by him.

    I could be wrong though so if someone has the transcript and/or time to check that would be great.
     
  20. Bluesteel

    Bluesteel Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    London,UK
    Can anyone tell me the episodes where it turned out that Native Americans .... weren't really Humans. Also the ones where a group of Dinosaurs manged to walk upright escape,develop warp travel,leave Earth and travel 60,000 light years plus and had a fear of being compared to Humans.

    Those were classic Voyager Episodes for me.