A scene that I don't understand

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by digger, May 15, 2009.

  1. digger

    digger Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I hope I post this correctly, as a post regarding a seperate topic I made 2 days ago somehow disappeared.

    Anyway-- in the scenes where Kirk is speaking with Spock Prime, I believe toward the end, right before the beam out, Kirk says to Spock Prime something to the effect of, "You coming back in time. You cheated." Spock Prime responds with something like, "Something I learned from a old friend."

    This whole exchange doesn't make much sense to me. I think I understand what the writers are trying to imply with this scene: that Spock Prime's solution to the Nero problem was no different than Kirk's solution to the Kobayashi Maru.

    However, Spock Prime didn't come back in time intentionally. And even not taking that into account, now that Spock Prime is in the past, he is not trying to change anything (save for putting the Kirk/Spock friendship back on track).

    So going back in time isn't his solution to anything. It's just what happened as a result of his actions.

    Am I missing something else here? Can someone please clear it up for me if I am?

    thanks,
    mike.
     
  2. KirkusOveractus

    KirkusOveractus Captain Captain

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    He isn't just trying to get the Kirk/Spock friendship back on track, he's trying to get Kirk in command of the Enterprise to defeat Nero.

    There have been some times in TOS where Spock mentions to not interfere with the past timeframe they're in, lest they change the course of history.

    He could just as well have watched Vulcan explode and go to the Starfleet outpost, not tell Scotty who he is and let Kirk come in from the pod, not doing anything but live the rest of his days there.

    But, he decided to tell Kirk how to get command of the ship, and gave Scotty calculations on how to get to the Enterprise from Delta Vega instead.
     
  3. Ransak

    Ransak Ensign Newbie

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    I took it as a glib reference to Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home. And on the note that Spock did not come back intentionally I agree with you, that whole scene seemed somewhat contrived. Yet another plot hole I guess.
     
  4. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Spock Prime gives Scotty future technology in order to get Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise.

    That's definitely cheating, no matter what his motives are and no matter his assertion that Scotty will discover it himself at some point in the future.

    Pretty cut and dried in that respect.
     
  5. ST-One

    ST-One Vice Admiral

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    It's the writers making fun of themselves.
     
  6. digger

    digger Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I can buy that. Keeping in mind what you just said allows me to enjoy the scene more. Thanks for the information.
     
  7. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This timeline had already be altered 25 years before Spock Prime emerged. In effect, when he emerges, the damage has been done and Spock Prime is now a part of this new timeline. There is nothing he can set straight. He might as well be a part of it.

    To that end, nudging Kirk in the direction of taking over the Enterprise is probably the point they are addressing before Kirk beams out. Kirk certainly wouldn't have done that without Spock Prime's urging and help. Who knows where he would've ended up had he not been told to take that chance by Spock Prime?

    As far as Spock Prime's response to changing history being cheating is that he learned it from an old friend goes, the only problem I had is I don't recall a time Kirk ever set out to change history. In TVH nothing was changed. Whales were brought to the 23rd century, but obviously that was supposed to happen. In "City" or "Tommorow is Yesterday", it was about returning things to as they were supposed to be.

    I think the thing the writers may have done is play on the popular misperception that Kirk made many trips through time and altered history as needed. Which is, of course, patently wrong in reality.
     
  8. DougWare

    DougWare Ensign Red Shirt

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    The line that Spock speaks during the movie that made absolutely no sense to me was something like "Thrusters on full" during Kirk's promotion scene. I kept expecting to cut to the Enterprise and have Kirk use that exact line (kinda as a tie in to between the two timelines). However, since it wasn't quoted exactly I have no clue why Spock said it.

    Any ideas?
     
  9. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There were supposed to be whales in the 24th century? I don't see it; it's convenient for humans if there are, but nobody mucked with the timeline to stop them from being there.

    Doesn't change the main point, though. Kirk is trying to change his present in TVH, not his past.

    As for cheating, I read Spock Prime as not talking about timelines per se. What he learned from Kirk Prime is that when the rules are against you, cheating is the logical response.
     
  10. Opus

    Opus Commodore Commodore

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    I thought the "cheating" line was in reference to the Kirk vs. Spock exchange in front of the academy board after Kirk beat Spock's Kobayashi Maru test.
     
  11. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Spock Prime, of course, is an old hand at time-travel, which young Kirk and his friends don't yet know anything about. Spock or his companions have done a bit of it and have done a bit of cheating at it from time to time as well. He knows that from his POV it's worked out pretty well most of the time. Transparent aluminum...
     
  12. Holodoc

    Holodoc Commodore Commodore

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    Except that Spock gives Scotty the information after this scene; unless Kirk can see into the future, he can hardly accuse Spock of cheating that he has not yet undertaken.
     
  13. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    This is what I thought it was too.
     
  14. Holodoc

    Holodoc Commodore Commodore

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    That's what it is from the perspective of the audience; it's when you think about it from the perspective of the characters that it starts to fall apart.
     
  15. Falconfire

    Falconfire Captain Captain

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    Exactly as you said. More than once in the movies before moving out, Kirk gives that command to Sulu. When Spock says it upon watching Kirk finally take his rightful command, we then cut to Sulus typical thruster/impulse lines and a one by one to each of the crews customary moving out lines per the movies.

    Basically Spock was saying to himself what he knew would come next given how often he remembers it happening on the Enterprise.

    Its kinda of a old man remembering his past scene, and was really meant for the fans than it was the general audience.
     
  16. KingstonTrekker

    KingstonTrekker Commander Red Shirt

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    It was also referencing the fact that it is now "full thrusters ahead" for the launch of the Enterprise -- with a series of new adventures ahead of them in this exciting new timeline/reality in which the future is unwritten.
     
  17. KingstonTrekker

    KingstonTrekker Commander Red Shirt

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    Kirk's whole history is one of "changing the rules" or "cheating death" to win at the end of the day. Spock was just referencing that this is something that he learned from Kirk. It is also why Kirk is the man who NEEDS to command the Enterprise against Nero. (And begin forming his bond with young Spock in the process.)