A Military Star Fleet and UESPA

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Mysterion, May 28, 2013.

  1. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    No, it really hasn't. The only times Starfleet has ever been referred to as an Earth "navy" were in early TOS, before they created Starfleet for "Court-Martial" and the Federation for "A Taste of Armageddon." Since then, Starfleet has been explicitly stated on multiple occasions to be a Federation agency, answerable to the Federation government.

    In STID, we saw several non-Human admirals in that briefing room scene, actually. And of course, we never know:

    1. How many of those Human-looking people actually are Human, or how many of them are non-Humans whose species looks Human. Or:

    2. How many of those Humans are actually from Earth as compared to, say, former Earth colonies have have become their own separate, independent Federation Members, or to other planets that host large Human populations. For all we know, three or four Human extras in any given scene may be from Andor or Tellar.

    Meanwhile, a preponderance of one species at one location does not make that organization an agency of that species's homeworld's government. If Starfleet's Tellar headquarters and Tellar-based fleet is mostly staffed by Tellarites, that doesn't mean Starfleet is a Tellarite agency.
     
  2. bryce

    bryce Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I am at the library, so I typed that in a hurry, and just went back and edited it a bit. But I've gotten the impression sometimes that Starfleet was an Earth-centric agency.

    I do think that it IS the Federsation navy...but I gte the impression that there are all-Vulcan ships (Intrepid in TOS, and the ship in "Take Me Out To the Holosuite") and all Benzite ships (in that TNG exchange program episode)...so I wonder if, in some cases, individual species/worlds have that own Starfleet branch...so in TOS the Enterprise was a Federation Starfleet vessel, but operated by the UNESPA/United Earth Starfleet (branch.)

    Yeah, good points. I think there may be species-specific branches of Starfleet (which males sense if some species have different environmental and atmosphere needs)...as well as multi-species ships like the Titan in the books. (Plus in Voyager they said that Earth wasn't just a human planet anymore, but home to many species...and so individuals of those species would join the *Earth* branch of Starfleet.

    And I really think that there would have to be at least a few Starfleet Academy branches out there too, since I don't see how one academy (which seemed to have a limited number of slots per Federation sector) - could staff all the ships and starbases that we saw in TNG and DS9. (But then again, in TNG and DS9 we were given different impressions of the size of Starfleet. They lost 40 ships at Wolf 359, and they acted like it was a significant fraction of the whole Starfleet...but then in the Dominio War arc in DS9 we saw whole fleets of ships, 40 or more even, go into battle, and most get lost. I think in one DS9 episode they mentioned losing 300 ships in a short amount of time! And yet Starfleet goes on strong.
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well the relaunch novels, especially the Worlds of DS9 novel about Bajor, go into a lot of detail about the process of incorporating the Bajoran Militia into Starfleet. Whlie a lot of it's members(including Kira) were offered commissions, the Militia and it's structure did remain in tact. Albeit in a national guard role, and some of the members were resentful over that.

    TNG gives evidence that the individual members still have their own forces. In Gambit Riker contacts a Vulcan security minister to coordinate the mission to ensure "no one starts firing" on the mercenary ship for example.

    The Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and so forth all had considerable military forces. More so than Earth at the time of the Founding of the Federation. By that, I don't get why the Federation Starfleet is so Earth and specifically western influenced... fleets, ship designs, ship names and what not... other than the authors are.
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I believe the term used was absorbed, as in to accommodate or take in.

    When a new member joins NATO they have to alter their military structures so as that they can conduct joint operations with other NATO members . But the member retains "ownership" over their military forces.

    In addition to that example, consider this ...

    When Brazil assumed command of the United Nations Interim Force task force (Lebanon) in 2011, the frigate União (Union) identified itself officially as the flagship of the United Nations Interim Force. And not officially as a Brazilian naval vessel.

    Today, in addition to the Brazilian frigate Constituição (Constitution), the UNIFIL task force is currently comprised of 2 ships from Bangladesh, 3 ships from Germany and 1 ship each from Greece, Indonesia and Turkey. All these ship remain part of their home Navy's, but are also part of the United Nations Interim Force to which they are attached. This would be how they would referred to themselves.

    Federation Starfleet = NATO fleet = United Nations Interim Force.

    None of the ships are owned by the organization mentioned, but they are attached to it, and refer to it in communications.

    Actually he refers to himself with that term, and no one else ever does. And it is truly strange that he would self-describe himself as such, given that it's made perfectly clear over the course of the show that it is the Federation Council, and not the "commander-in-chief" that is providing instructions to Starfleet.

    When have you ever seen in real life (the news), a TV show, or a movie, a US Naval vessel receiving instructions from "Congress?"

    It's the Council and not the President that possess the power of commander-in-chief (if not the title).

    If the Member worlds of the Federation formed the Federation in the first place to provide for a common defense (other things too), then this would be expected.

    In the case of NATO, there is "SHAPE" (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) it is the Headquarters of Allied Command Operations.

    Allied Command Operations is responsible for all Alliance military operations, analogous perhaps to Starfleet Command.

    When different Members starships operate together, they are the Federation's Starfleet.

    Hardly clear at all.

    Today many countries have a "Navy." Why would it be odd if both United Earth and the Federation both used the term "Starfleet?"

    Or there is in fact a "United Earth Starfleet" and when United Earth deploys portions of it's fleet to operate in combination with other Federation Member's starships those ships are part of the "Federation Starfleet."

    Christopher: "I see. Did the Navy ... ?"
    Kirk: We're a combined service Captain. Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.

    :)
     
  5. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Tell that to the French.

    For the record, T'Girl is being disingenuous above. She quotes herself in post #31 after her quote of myself in Post #39, as though #31 were a reply to #39 -- which it obviously is not. Post #31 did not in any way reply to Post #39.

    The problem with this comparison is that under no circumstances are ships of the Federation Starfleet referred to as being "Earth" or "Vulcan" starships in some non-temporarily-attached-to-the-Federation-Starfleet context, and there is no evidence whatsoever of them being "loaned" to the Federation Starfleet.

    In fact, the demobilized, about-to-be-decommissioned, not-on-any-missions-and-therefore-not-attached-to-any-international-organization's-task-forces U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 is explicitly referred to as Federation property in Star Trek IV. There is no way the demobilized Enterprise could be United Earth property, because there is no way a demobilized ship could still be under the command of an international organization's task force.

    And that's to say nothing of the fact that no one has ever called those task forces in real life the "NATO Navy" or the "United Nations Navy." Yet the organization in STAR TREK has often been called the Federation Starfleet. Not the "Federation Interim Forces Task Force."

    This is the context of that scene:

    [quote="Paradise Lost," DSN]
    SISKO
    You want proof... Order Admiral
    Leyton to withdraw his troops from
    the streets... see what he does.

    JARESH-INYO
    You think he would refuse a direct
    order from his commander-in-chief?

    SISKO
    If he orders his troops to stand
    down, then I'm wrong and I'll
    offer my resignation. But I don't
    think that's going to happen.
    With those troops in place,
    Admiral Leyton controls Earth.
    And he's not going to give up that
    control until he's convinced he's
    ended the Dominion threat.[/quote]

    No one else refers to the Federation President as the commander-in-chief because they all recognize and agree that he is the commander-in-chief. Sisko even says that if Leyton obeys the President -- in other words, if he treats the President as his commander-in-chief -- that means that the coup Sisko suspects is coming won't happen.

    Actually, the Federation Council is barely mentioned in that episode.

    Yes, we do see other episodes where the Federation Council issues instructions to Starfleet -- though whether or not they constitute orders is questionable. But we have seen the Federation President issue direct orders to Starfleet before in Star Trek VI and in Star Trek IV. So the most this could prove is that Starfleet's chain-of-command functions somewhat differently; it certainly does not prove that Starfleet's commander-in-chief is not the President, and it does not prove that Starfleet is not an agency of the Federation government.

    There is no evidence whatsoever that Starfleet is an international organization's platform for military cooperation between sovereign states' armed forces. Starfleet is only ever referred to as the Federation Starfleet, and it only ever answers to the Federation government. Its ships are never called Earth or Tellarite or whatever ships -- they are Federation property, and remain Federation property even when demobilized, as established in STIV.

    There is no evidence of this whatsoever. You are making this up.

    True! Yet neither NATO nor the United Nations have their own navies. :)

    Not odd at all. I have no problem with the idea that the Federation Starfleet and the United Earth Starfleet are separate organizations, one answering to the Federation government and one answering to the United Earth government -- in the same way that the Maryland Defense Forces answer to the State of Maryland and the United States Navy answers to the United States.

    Then how could Miles O'Brien say he's always been in service to the Federation Starfleet, if he's actually in the United Earth Starfleet? Why would the Borg identify the U.S.S. Voyager as a ship of the Federation Starfleet if it is actually an Earth ship? How could the demobilized U.S.S. Enterprise be Federation property if it's no longer operating in combination with anyone's ships?

    It's the Federation Starfleet. Period.

    As I said before: The writers of TOS retconned UESPA out when they created Starfleet and the Federation. That line is no longer in continuity, any more than claims that Vulcans had been conquered in "The Conscience of the King" remained in continuity after "The Immunity Syndrome" established that Vulcan had never been conquered, or than Kirk's middle name remained "R" after later episodes established his middle name to be "T," or than the idea that the interaction of matter and anti-matter would lead to the destruction of the universe after later episodes established that m/am reactions are the routine way warp power is generated.
     
  6. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure how that's different from what I said.

    Right. Contrast with, say, the Maryland National Guard, which IS an American agency.

    Actually, that analogy works surprisingly well in this situation. We have UESPA (Maryland Defense Force) which is related to and works to support Starfleet (Maryland National Guard). Due to the nature of the Federation and the circumstances of its incorporation, the latter probably would not even exist without the former.

    And yet, imagine if the US Navy had evolved from the Virginia Navy, that all of its main bases were and had always been in Virginia, that it was dominated by Virginians, that almost all of its ships were built in Virginia, named in a language that only Virginians speak, designed using technology primarily developed by Virginian companies.

    We would still call it the U.S. Navy, but it would be recognized that the U.S. Navy is primarily a product of Virginia. It would then make sense that almost every time the United States gets attacked by anyone, Virginia is almost always their first target.

    Of course. Earth Starfleet originally borrowed Vulcan star charts for their earliest missions and started copying some of their more successful protocols when their happy-go-lucky fly-by-night approach proved to be untenable.

    It would be nice to think so, but all three of those are severely under-represented in Starfleet despite having much older and more mature space programs. Both Vulcan and Andorian ships were considerably more advanced and more powerful than their Earth-built counterparts, and judging by some of Daniel's historical records, the Vulcans continued to develop their own unique ship designs even after the founding of the Federation. As did the Tellarites, depending on how you interpret Sarek's argument in "Journey to Babel."

    So I think that the "Federation Starfleet" is the name of the spacefaring organization that Earth contributes to the Federation. The Vulcan, Tellarite and Andorian contributions probably go by different names; it is at least plausible that the term "Vulcan Science Academy" is an umbrella term that would include, among other things, the bulk of their space fleet and all of its offworld space installations as a whole. The Andorian contribution might be incorporated under yet another organization, while the Tellarite fleet is administered by the Federation Unit for Clever Comebacks (FUCC).
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Other than when exactly this happens during TOS.

    Other than when exactly this happens during TOS.

    Yes you did say that, problem with that of course is the UESPA was created by TPTB seven episodes after Starfleet was first mentioned.

    And two episode after the one with the UESPA, where the Federation was first mentioned, that episode also mentioned the USS Valiant, which was a starship in a Earth expedition a half century after the formation of the Federation and the Earth ship's name include USS.

    Correct, both NATO fleets and the UN task forces are composed of the naval vessels of the Member nations.

    I'm exploring a possibility based upon evidence contained within the show.

    You're misunderstanding, "the show" refers to the entirety of Star Trek, multiple series and movies, and not to a particular episode.

    And I stand by my post, when the Enterprise (various Enterprise's) were told where to go and what to do, that was coming from Starfleet or the Federation (and on occasion Earth), and when we heard about the Federation it was the Council that was specifically mentioned. The President was seen what, three times? And then never again.

    You seem fond of retcon, perhaps the Federation President was later "retcon" out of existence, along with everything he ever said. The show obviously did continue with the Council being the authoritative body.

    TOS (pre-movies) never mentioned a President..
    10 of the movies, no mention.
    All of TNG, no mention.
    All of Voyager, no mention.

    Only? Try rarely, the majority of the time Starfleet is simply Starfleet.

    As the article you site makes clear, France did not "get along" with NATO's structure and withdrew for over four decades.

    *****

    NATO headquarters is located in Casteau, Kingdom of Belgium. NATO is not a Belgian agency, does not answer to the Belgian government, and its commander-in-chief is not Prime Minister Elio Di Rupo.

    :)
     
  8. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Another thing to think about, the Axanar war was going on more or less during the Pike era and thus the ships like the Enterprise at that time sported a more spartan look and a minimal (or standard) crew of about 200, but afterwards in piece time, during the Kirk era, the Enterprise and at least “12 like her” were refitted for 5 year deep space exploratory missions and the crew complement was boosted to 430 by adding all the scientific personnel necessary to carry out that mission profile?
     
  9. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That assumes the Enterprise wasn't the only ship on a 5 year deep space exploratory mission. Considering Kirk made a big deal about it in TMP it sounds like something only he and the Enterprise did.
     
  10. Nerroth

    Nerroth Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    At this point, Star Fleet (as opposed to Starfleet) more closely relates to the organization as seen in the Star Fleet Universe, as opposed to what has been shown on-screen since 1979.

    (From a legal perspective, ADB are obliged to refer to "their" version as Star Fleet, based on the term as was used in the Technical Manual; while the Paramount/CBS franchise has gone with Starfleet as one word instead.)


    For what it's worth, ADB's Star Fleet (as detailed in works like Prime Directive Federation) is primarily constituted as a star navy. However, that does not mean it doesn't have exploration as a major focus.

    In peacetime, what usually happens is that, of the various numbered fleets (each with a particular region of Federation space to patrol), the Second Fleet is the one which gets all of the dedicated survey cruisers and other such ships, and is often considered to be the premier posting for those "who think survey duty is the highest calling". The ships of the Second are most commonly deployed in the coreward region not bordering one of the Federation's near neighbours, so has less of an overt need to engage in more "mundane" duties in their neck of the galactic woods.

    That doesn't mean the other numbered fleets don't get to go on missions of exploration, but it does mean that issues like hunting pirates, patrolling border regions with rival empires, and other such military-minded operations are far more common than in the Second.

    (The ADB-Federation was originally based on the "big Fed" map shown in the Star Fleet Technical Manual, but was given further detail as more "native" empires were added, such as the Lyrans and Hydrans shown in the first two-and-a-half Starfleet Command PC games. However, since it is a "big Fed" setting, that still leaves a lot of unexplored star systems within the boundaries of Federation space itself.)


    None of this is directly relevant to what the Franchise has done with Starfleet post-1979, of course. But it does help show how some of the building blocks set in the Technical Manual (many of which were discarded by Paramount/CBS themselves) have been expanded upon in another, semi-related universe.
     
  11. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That may be true, but it's an assumption that Roddenberry and almost everyone else has made, and since you brought up TMP, Roddenberry's novelization of that movie makes it clear that there were other ships on five year missions.

    I know the novel is not "can:rolleyes:n" but if the creator of star trek, "Great Bird of the Galaxy" himself thinks so, then that's good enough for me. :p