A country without Money how it's work?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Brainsucker, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Where from the show do you get this idea that they possess a "post-scarcity" economy?

    This would appear to be the glaring hole in your theory.
     
  2. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
    May not necessarily need to be post-scarcity, but it probably wouldn't hurt.

    "Medical care and medicines are free. Even postage stamps are free. There is no rent. Housing, building repairs, water, gas, electricity-all are supplied gratis, not only to the collectivists but also to the 'individualists.'" The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff.

    "Doctors, barbers, carpenters and cobblers usually gave their services free and in return were maintained by the community." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.

    "Many of the normal motives of civilized life-snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.-has simply ceased to exist." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia.

    I suppose for those without a fantastic view of the ocean or mountains they may have to sign up for holo-imaging service.
     
  3. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Yes, because all the other economies around the Federation are based on currency.

    It really isn't that hard, as I explained somewhere before in this thread. The Federation has an excessive amount of clean, renewable energy sources, they produce so much energy and use it so efficiently that they don't know where to put it. And then they mastered the technology of turning energy into matter and vice versa. That's the basis for an economy that doesn't need any money and can provide basic services for every single citizen for free. Housing, almost 100% efficient solar panels, replicators, what else do you need to live a healthy life?

    There is a currency, it's the Federation Credit. But it's not money, it's energy packages.
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    But that would still be a form of money. If this "energy packet" is used to acquire goods and services, then it's money.
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    Money: any article or substance used as a medium of exchange, measure of wealth, or means of payment, as checks on demand deposit or cowrie.
     
  6. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Location:
    At star's end.
    This would work only if the federation knows how to break conservation of energy (it doesn't, as per the entirety of star trek).

    You seem to have no idea how much energy is needed in order to create, for example, 1 kg of atoms.
    This would be the energy produced by +1/2 kg antimatter and +1/2 kg matter (assuming the federation can efficiently capture and use neutrinos). In other words, enough to atomically blow up an entire continent (easily).

    The energy generators shown in star trek (matter/antimatter and fusion generators) are not powerful enough - by orders of magnitude - in order for energy so wastefully used to be plentiful.
     
  7. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Well, apparently they are, because they do all that stuff on a regular basis, don't they?
     
  8. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2003
    Location:
    ciudad de Los Angeles
    They do it on a regular basis on a starship normally not in a preperation for battle status. Or they pay Quark.
     
  9. magarity

    magarity Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Read More's "Utopia" for a fairly accurate description of how a society without money or private property would need to operate.
     
  10. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Location:
    At star's end.
    No, they don't - I hope you do realize it's only smoke and mirrors, yes?

    If you want to come up with a non-absurd/hillarious explanation, well, that's not the 'converting matter into energy' one - assuming you want to maintain even the pretense of following the laws of psysics.

    A more credible explanation (offered and consistently used in trek lit) is that replicators use already available matter and rearrange it into the needed combinations by using acceptable amounts of energy.

    Read - available matter; energy. Someone has to get them.

    Also - job as a waiter, miner, etc, etc - if you think a substantial percentage of the population will do such jobs day in and day out only because of 'hobby' - :guffaw:.
    ANY job involving stress, repetition, responsibility (as in - if you make a mistake, say goodbye to your career, social status) and less time with family/friends requires incentive beyond 'hobby' in the medium and long term.
     
  11. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Yes, let's read Sir Thomas More's book Utopia stall we?

    The Utopians have slaves.

    It is a serious crime to discuss any political business in private or public, these matters can only legally be discussed in the government assembly.

    Families can be broken up by the Utopian government and reassembled (as the government sees fit) to address population distribution problems.

    All of Utopia's 54 cities have exactly the same cultural practices, customs, and language. There is no diversity.

    Individual and private activities are discouraged. Activities (like eating) are to be parts of the communal life.

    Privacy is basically forbidden (certainly unobtainable), doors can not locked or even latched. All buildings and rooms are accessible to any person.

    There's no private property.

    Premarital sex is illegal and severely punished.

    People found to have committed repeated adultery are put to death.

    The Utopians employ a neighboring people (the Zapoletes) as mercenaries for their wars, partially because the Utopians find these people moral inferior and want to "use them up."

    *****

    What a charming people. Let's base the Federation on their society.

    *****
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  12. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Location:
    Hard Sassenach in Moist Aberdeen
    When i watched TNG, i always wondered why there would be waiters? Picard tells the unfrozen people from earths past that in the future, people don't do things for material gain but instead they do things to better themselves so presumably everyone is doing what they want with their lives and there is no need for money...........but wait, that means someone actually wants to be a waiter?? what....because this betters them (as Picard claimed).....really!!.....i mean sure, running a star ship is a challenge but hey, waiting on him would be just as much of a challenge.....it sure would sir......bollocks!

    Like in all societies.....the rich will always need someone to bring them their drinks....in Trek, they solve this by pretending it's what people want to do with their lives.....people want to bring Picard his drinks while he explores the unknown because ya know....it's a challenge .......when i see someone working an 8 hour shift in Tesco, i don't kid myself that they are doing it to better themselves or that they want to be there but for some reason Trek expects us to buy this

    That's why i liked the Maquis....they were the first thing in Trek to suggest that this Utopian society was not all it was cracked up to be
     
  13. robau

    robau Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Everyone still needs to start somewhere.
     
  14. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Location:
    At star's end.
    Not if you can spend your life partying and still be no worse off than a hard working waiter.
    In this case, you do not need to "start" at all.

    Also - being a "waiter" is not a job that gives you skills useful in high prestige jobs (it is pretty much a dead end job).
     
  15. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Location:
    Hard Sassenach in Moist Aberdeen
    But surely that's the point.....no they don't....they can just stay at home playing in holo novels with beautiful women all day and only stop for the occasional replicated meal (that's pretty much what i'd be doing) certainly if they lived in a society where money was redundant because all needs were catered for at least.........so why would i suddenly give up my daily sex sessions with the hottest women in history.........to become a waiter

    Yeah sure, i might get bored eventually (unlikely) but even if i did, i could theoretically become anything i wanted.....i could travel, i could go to the academy, i could write my own holo novel, i could do so many things.....................so why in the name of captain Kirks balls would i become a waiter??

    the only possible answer could be financial gain - I don't have a problem with the idea that money is redundant in the Star Trek universe but if that's the case then they need to be more consistent in the storytelling....they need to think....wait....why would this guy be a waiter in a world where he could do literally anything he wanted
     
  16. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Actually, yes.

    I think your cynicism stands in your way here.
     
  17. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Location:
    Hard Sassenach in Moist Aberdeen
    so you could travel through the stars, join star fleet, write a holo novel, explore the ruins of blah blah three, anything you want....and you choose to be a waiter

    hmm, i think your gullability stands in yours
     
  18. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Yes, why not?

    Besides, joining Starfleet isn't that easy.
    Writing a holonovel... just because you can do it doesn't mean you're good at it, just look at the fan fiction section here.

    So, to be cynical like you, even if you don't have to earn money, you can suck so much at everything else that the only thing that's left is being a waiter.
     
  19. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2003
    Location:
    ciudad de Los Angeles
    Just like here it doesn't matter if its good since your next bowl of soup doesn't depend upon other people buying it. No money also means anyone can build a ship, maybe gun control means some mercenary Ferengi will take it from you but you can run arong in your private Runabout like Captain (rerired) Scott
     
  20. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    No money suddenly equals infinite knowledge and skill?
     

Share This Page