A country without Money how it's work?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Brainsucker, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  2. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Federation has an virtually unlimited energy supply because they mainly use very efficient energy sources. And then they have the ability to turn energy into matter and the other way round.

    That's why there's no need for money at all.

    The idea that people won't work if there's no money, and that people are somehow "better" if they work more and make more money, is a very capitalist one. People will simply do what they want, that's cool, isn't it? And with the right education, inspiration and motivation, you're not just jerking off to your WoW avatar. There would be a lot more artists, a lot more researchers, and a lot more service jobs.
     
  3. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    JarodRussell, did you see my long winded post on page five where I showed historical examples of people working for free in a society that abolished money. Except for the prostitutes, as one commenter quipped.

    "Money has been abolished. Neither the standard currency of Spain (the peseta) nor local money is used in transactions within or between any of the collectives of the county or district." The Anarchist Collectives: Workers' Self-Management in the Spanish Revolution 1936-1939 by Sam Dolgoff.

    "All around a heady atmosphere of excitement and optimism prevailed. Gerald Brenan said that 'visitors to Barcelona in the autumn of 1936 will never forget the moving and uplifting experience.' Foreigners who gave a tip had it returned politely with an explanation of why the practice corrupted both the give and the receiver." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.

    "...almost my first experience was receiving a lecture from a hotel manager for trying to tip a lift-boy." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia.
     
  4. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Arpy, consider these:

    "Many of the normal motives of civilized life-snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.-had simply ceased to exist." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia.

    "Doctors, barbers, carpenters and cobblers usually gave their services free and in return were maintained by the community." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.

    "Medical care and medicines are free. Even postage stamps are free. There is no rent. Housing, building repairs, water, gas, electricity-all are supplied gratis, not only to the collectivists buy also to the 'individualists.'" The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff.

    But today we're dismissing this as an utopian sci-fi fantasy when in truth it is a historical reality. Ironic in a way.
     
  5. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Problem with your example is the money-less society you're using as an example only last a short period of time, then there was rationing and vouchers. Then General Franco's forces won the civil war, leading to restrictions and suppression of the anarchist's movement.

    It's impossible to know if the anarchist society would have been able to be stable over a protracted period of time.

    From my grandmother's diarys of that time period in Spain, the anarchist movement was popular. But also people in some places were not alway given a option as to whether this was a system they wanted to live under. The anarchists could be quite forceful and militant.

    The lecture did not (apparently) come from the lift-boy himself. Maybe he would have preferred to keep the tip?
     
  6. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    All moneyless societies presented here (and elsewhere) are socialist - the state//ruling elite/etc has control over the means of production (and distributes the products 'fairly' or not - depending on the political ideology).

    And, as history shows, socialism works well until you run out of other people's money (produced resources/whatever).
    Socialism is ALWAYS a poor manager, failing to create wealth efficiently - again, as history has shown every single time. Principally, due to failure to motivate the workforce (on all levels) to competitively produce, manage, innovate, etc.
     
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Let's just concede that unlimited energy can produce unlimited food, clothes and the such however absurd that notion is given Voyager was rationing things out in the Delta Quadrant so there are limits.

    Things like land, transportation, intellectual property all still dictate the need for some sort of monetary value system if society is going to continue functioning.

    Unless you're really defending something like say... Cuba's system of housing and transportation?
     
  8. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    What you described is hardly socialist. More like State Capitalist. Including the Soviet Union. Remember, Lenin's NEP (New Economic Policy) of 1920? Also any system, including our neo-liberal economy works fine until the economy falters.

    "In every country in the world a huge tribe of party-hacks and sleek little professors are busy 'proving' that Socialism means no more than a planned state-capitalism with the grab-motive left intact. But fortunately there also exists a vision of Socialism quite different from this." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia.
     
  9. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Present-day Argentina seems to offer a longer-lasting and succesful example of workers' self-management, social and economic self-organizing with the worker occupied factories, neighborhood assemblies and barter-exchange co-ops (which don't use money) set-up throughout the country. This has been going on since the IMF collapsed the Argentine economy over a decade ago. From what I understand, the worker occupied factories even won a concession from the Argentine gov't in 2011. Not as dramatic as Spain, perhaps, but longer lasting.
     
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    There are a lot of different kinds of Socialism, just as there are a lot of different kinds of Capitalism. Perhaps we should more strictly define our terms?
     
  11. Temis the Vorta

    Temis the Vorta Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What's with all these mile-long posts? The answer is simple:

    The replicators provide everything anyone wants. Then people get bored and start doing stuff. Take money out of the equation, and people will still do stuff, money or no money. They may still be greedy but express it in other ways, such as competitiveness.

    Proof is right here: nobody is being paid to post here. Why do we do it? :p
     
  12. paudemge

    paudemge Captain Captain

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    Would there be private property?
    And if there was how would you exchange it?
     
  13. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    When I see these discussions I think that even with replicators you can't give everybody prime real estate. Someone will have to be locked out of that ocean or mountain view. With the Picard's locking up the land with their vineyard the excess people have to be shunted off somewhere else by some mechanism. Maybe they can sit in a holosuite all day but that is not the same.
     
  14. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Replicators are pretty much the answer.

    It would still be hard to understand people like Kassidy Yates, who works as a freighter captain.

    She appears to work to get paid, appeared frustrated with her job at times, and even risked going to prison to deliver something.

    Sometimes I think they throw stuff like that in to make humans seem more interesting or relatable.
     
  15. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Remember that replicators didn't exist in the 23rd century, yet Kirk in ST 4 mentions that money isn't used in the 23rd century.

    Gillian: "Don't tell me, they don't use money in the 23rd century?"

    Kirk: "Well, they don't."
     
  16. Unwrapped

    Unwrapped Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    And yet in TSFS, McCoy was clearly familiar with the concept of money when he was trying to buy passage to Genesis. :D When it comes to money and economics, Trek wound up with a system that's more complicated than it needs to be.
     
  17. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Captain Kirk (in ST: GEN): "Come on in. It's all right, it's my house."

    Captain Kirk (in ST: GEN): "At least it used to be, I sold it years ago."

    Wait, you're not being paid on a per word basis like the rest of us?
     
  18. robau

    robau Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I imagine a view in space sounds awesome to a lot of people.

    An underground economy. A small number of people will always want to do illegal things.
     
  19. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No doubt, but the scarcity exist in access to the Picard vineyard when a Kirk also wants to live on a vineyard in France with a nighttime view of just one large moon. Soon you will run out of room there and some mechanism has to be developed which lets the small number of Picard's stay there while the Sisko's must settle for a restaurant in a city, and the O'Brien's are left with a dormitory room in a San Francisco overrun with potential Starfleet officers
     
  20. USS Einstein

    USS Einstein Captain Captain

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    In terms of Star Trek, credits seem to only be used for non-essentials.

    Accommodation, education, healthcare, food, access to literature, and all the other things a healthy being needs to develop in a wholesome way, are all free, in their post-scarcity economy.

    But, things that require more resources in terms of energy, or land use, require Federation credits (perhaps a form of energy credit) - so Kirk's house, being an inefficient building using a lot of land, would be an example.

    [​IMG]

    Some companies, that make luxury/niche goods, like clock-makers, wineries, brewers, etc, may still exist, but without any profit motive - with full democratic control handed over to workers - no wage slavery - no charge for what they produce, other than energy credits - no reason to work for them except out of love for the craft, and perhaps more energy credits - no malign need to advertise or propagandize their product.

    Perhaps in order to prevent people inheriting material posessions and becoming covetous, you can't pass things down to children - Kirk's cabin would go to someone else upon his death - or perhaps greed is simply prevented by people being more enlightened about what makes a human life worth living.

    Other than that, I doubt Star Trek uses anything like monetary economics (either capitalist or socialist) - rather, it seems to be closer to what Marxists call 'pure communism', or to an anarchist society of collectives without coercion or compulsion, or to a green resource-based economy.

    The most important thing is, it is post-scarcity. Most of our economics deal with a world in which money exists or resources are limited.