A Cardassian Flagship

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Withers, Mar 26, 2010.

  1. Withers

    Withers Captain

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    There were a lot of parallels, equal opposite, tit-for-tat aspects of the Dukat/Sisko dynamic. What one had the other attained. What one accomplished the other ultimately failed to do. What was considered to be a defining characteristic of one was viewed as the polar opposite of the other. Dukat was seen as the man responsible for the plight of Bajor while Sisko was seen as the man responsible for its salvation. Sisko saved the Federation from defeat by the Dominion while Dukat was blamed for nearly costing the Dominion the war. Sisko turned to and had the aid of the Prophets during his moment(s) of despair. Dukat had the Pah-Wraiths. In action, in how they were regarded, and and what they were responsible for there are clear parallels (whether they were ever intended to be there or not.) It rings through out the entire show even during Dukat's “ambiguous” period. They are on par with one another in every aspect I can think of... save for one.


    Sisko had the USS Defiant, a Federation Warship with unique technology and a Romulan cloaking device. As far as DS9 was concerned the Defiant was the flagship of the war. She always led the charge with Sisko in command. Dukat never had a flagship of his own and I think they missed a real opportunity by not giving him one. Allow me to elaborate;


    A major distinction between Sisko and the other Captains was the he was a builder more than an explorer. He built ships. He, at one point, wanted to build orbital habitats. He helped to construct and design Defiant, he aided in the regeneration of Bajor and the upgrading and re-establishing of Deep Space Nine. Sisko was a builder. The perfect mirror to this is Dukat as the destroyer. Of course, he had the Occupation as an example of this part of his nature, but there was nothing...tangible about that, nothing that could be seen or really be visceral. Had they given him a flagship this could have been something that was portrayed as another very poignant parallel between Dukat and Sisko.


    “Well, what would he destroy? Just anything?” No. I think showing his flagship personally destroying, specifically, the Marquis would have been perfect. Sisko builds things and places for people to live. Contrast that with an episode about Dukat destroying the remaining Marquis and their homes and lives in a ship all his own. It would have been the perfect way to wrap up Tomas Riker and a few other characters who were decent but had unceremonious send-offs. They could have done this “Dukat eliminates the Marquis” in just one episode to both wrap that up with dramatic finality and introduce this counter-point to the Defiant. In my head it would have been perfect.


    The fanboy in me wants to say that later on the two ships could engage one another in some epic scene where the two of them literally duke it out one on one (and I'm sure had there been such a vessel that would have happened) but that would be... just incidental as far as I'm concerned as the concept would be more important to me than the graphics of another space battle.




    Rarely do I actually have the nerve to think I could make anything better that is already so awesome but this is one of those moments. The lack of a Dukat flagship doesn't hinder anything or make anything less enjoyable for me. It's like when you cook a meal with the ingredients you have and it turns out to be really good but you know in your heart if you'd had the ingredients you wanted it would have been spectacular, you know?


    Anyway, not unlike the Dukat thread, this was just me... ya know, saying stuff. There was no real point to it.




    -Withers-​
     
  2. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    He had his Bird-of-Prey. :) The ship he (and Kira) stole and which he used to fight a resistance movement for personal glory. He destroyed Klingon ships and fought to free Cardassian space from Klingons aiming to control it, just as Sisko fought in his ship to free the alpha quadrant from Dominion control. Only Dukat eventually sold out and decided an easier solution to his problem (and one getting him the recognition I believe he craved) was to have the Dominion control Cardassian territory in the Klingons' place.

    Sisko builds ships, where Dukat steals them for reasons he insists are for the greater good of Cardassia but really, we suspect, are more about his own desire for glory and recognition (and he uses Bajorans to help him do it, too). Just as Sisko builds something with DS9 and Bajor, whereas Dukat...well.

    Interesting post, though.
     
  3. Withers

    Withers Captain

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    I knew that was gonna come up :D That doesn't count. Sisko gets a state-of-the-art Warship and Dukat gets a rusty old tub? No, c'mon... I mean a real flagship, the likes of which... you know, would scare people. I also kind of thought it would be cool if they blended Cardassian and Dominion technology to create it. A hybrid ship of two very distinct styles... but that's the fanboy again and like the inevitable fight with Defiant would be incidental.



    -Withers-​
     
  4. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    :lol: Fair enough.

    But of course (labouring this for all it's worth :lol:), is not part of the dynamic that Sisko is the shiny new one and Dukat the rusty old? I mean, Sisko replaced Dukat, in Dukat's eyes- he has Dukat's old job, and Dukat has fallen from grace.

    You've got a good point- I like your analysis of Sisko vs Dukat. It would be interesting to see where else you could take it.
     
  5. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Dukat MIGHT have had the Prakesh, pre-Dominion War. It is never stated that the Prakesh is his ship, but it is a possibility. (Of course, the Prakesh was blown up. Not sure what he had after that.)
     
  6. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I too like and approve of the ideas behind this post. Mind you, I did think that it was regarding the construction of a flagship for the Union's Grand Fleet. (I'm envisioning a Kulinor class dreadnought myself:evil:).

    Dukat did have a Galor for himself before the fall. Maybe this would make a fanfic, One Gul and his Galor?

    (
    NG, wasn't the Pakesh a old transport variation that was rushed into action to evacuate the Depta council? We never got the name of the ship that he used before WotW.


    whoa, this is the first Cardassian thread that i've posted in for a long time. I have shamed the Union...)
     
  7. Withers

    Withers Captain

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    That's very true. I think, were I sat in a room with the creators and writers, and given a reason why he didn't get a new ship to rival Defiant this is as well constructed an argument as I would be likely to get. I will say that it is dependent on which parallel one references in regard to the two as there are so many.

    I really like the idea of a special ship for Dukat but I would have been happy seeing a Romulan flagship or a Dominion flagship or even the return of the Klingon flagship once in a while, you know? A sort of break in the monotony of the same classes beating one another down with Defiant as the only "unique" ship on screen most of the time?


    -Withers-​
     
  8. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I agree- even if it was simply seeing the Negh'vah lead a battle or making the Dominion battlecruiser Valiant fought against a plot point in later episodes, it would have been nice to see other unique ships. (although of course I mentioned Valiant, so Defiant wasn't so unique any longer).
     
  9. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Dominion Battleship from "Valiant" wasn't that important, I mean in the series finale we saw Dominion Battleships even BIGGER than that one!
     
  10. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nope, the Prakesh was indeed a Galor.

    http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Prakesh

    Whether this was Dukat's ship before the evacuation we don't know, but it was definitely commanded by him during the evacuation.
    Your absence has been duly noted by those of us in the Obsidian Order. And whenever there is doubt, we must always operate on the premise that you were up to no good...



    ;)
     
  11. Photon

    Photon Commodore Commodore

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    exactly, and one's that could put the hurt on someone
     
  12. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    Dukat was seen commanding a Galor in "Emissary," so it's logical for that vessel to possibly be the Prakesh.
     
  13. Saito S

    Saito S Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Getting back to the actual topic... ;)

    You know, in all honesty, this is something I never even thought about. Was the Prakesh Dukat's ship? If not, did he have one? What was it? I never really considered those questions till now.

    I suppose, assuming that Cardassians do employ a similar system for commanding a ship to most of the rest of the galactic powers (and that does seem to be the case; "Gul" is pretty much "Captain", as far as I'm aware), it would make sense that he would have had his own ship. And now that I am thinking about it, it very well could have been pretty interesting to see him flying about in it, for the reasons Withers mentioned, especially after the Cardies joined the Dominion (at which point, "Gul Dukat's ship" would be a far more significant, threatening thing than it had been before). Since commanding a ship is generally a pretty prestigious, career-enhancing position in Trek, it's odd that - if the Prakesh WAS his ship - he never got another one, given his rank and accomplishments within the Cardassian military. And the Maquis thing... that could have provided a little more... I dunno, substance to their end. One of the things that always bugged me was how the Maquis went down. Now, I didn't expect to SEE it; to actually have large chunks of episode time and special FX monies devoted to showing Maquis raiders fighting Jem'Hadar bugs, etc. But, neither the invasion of Betazed nor the Breen attack on Earth were shown, either, yet they still carried an appropriate amount of gravity due to the way the characters in-universe learned of these events, and the way we the viewers learned of them. Whereas with the Maquis, it was such a handwave. "Oh, yeah, the Maquis being utterly obliterated... that happened recently."

    This could have added a more personal element, having Dukat command "the new Dominion/Cardassian flagship" and lead the charge to steamroll the Maquis. Even if we still don't see it, if it's presented the right way, that could have worked really well.

    Now... if I may jump over the fence and play devil's advocate... :D
    For a guy that didn't have a ship that was clearly, plainly identified as "his ship", Dukat really got around, and accomplished a lot. He kept showing up, he kept making trouble (or helping out, during those times when he was actually more or less on the "good guy" side of some issue). In a way, it makes him more impressive as a villain, because it shows his resourcefulness.

    Hmm... didn't he show up in a Galor in "Civil Defense", too? I'm starting to think that that ship, as well as the ship from "Emissary", was the Prakesh, which was "his ship". The real question, then, would be why he never got a replacement.
     
  14. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    Count me as another one who would have loved to see Dukat lead the charge in eliminating the Maquis. Not only would this have given them, and Thomas Riker, a proper send off, it would have....

    1.) Done more to enhance Dukat's villainy and his betrayal of the Alpha Quadrant in the lead-up to the outbreak of the war....

    2.) Made it more emotionally compelling when the Maquis on VOY learned about their friends being wiped out (if you want to talk about a handwave, there it is - "Oh, some species from the Gamma Quadrant killed all of our dearest friends. Who wants some coffee.")
     
  15. Red Ranger

    Red Ranger Admiral Admiral

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    Interesting topic. Perhaps when Dukat was in charge of Bajor's occupation, he had a warship docked at the station for his use, much like the Defiant. BTW, it seems that while Gul is equivalent to a Captain, they have many other duties aside from commanding a ship. It's almost like Guls have some of the powers of a Legate or Admiral.
     
  16. BolianAuthor

    BolianAuthor Writer, Battlestar Urantia Rear Admiral

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    DS9 never got the flagship thing right... I never liked the Defiant much, so I won't go into that ship... but for instance General Martok... here is a Klingon General that is highly decorated, and is leading the war effort on the front lines, and participates in many KEY battles, and what does he have? An absolutely piece of shit decades old Bird of Prey. The man should have been given a fricking Negh'Var, for godsakes... it was TOTALLY unrealistic that Matrok's little Bird of Prey survived as long as it did.

    Here here... the Maquis were annoying. I actually cheered whenever Dukat threatened to wipe them from the universe.
     
  17. Ra'min

    Ra'min Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I never liked the defiant either, it is not very credible. It is a tiny ship and it seems to outgun most warships in the quadrant. Destroying jem hadard attack ships and cardassian galors is like turkey shooting to it.

    And it's not very consistently displayed. In some shots it appears next to a galor and it's tiny compared to it (especially in the ep where tom riker stole it), in other scenes it looks bigger.

    Worst, the okudagram clearly shows 4 decks only, and they sometimes send the turbolift to deck five!
     
  18. Withers

    Withers Captain

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    :O

    Joe Biden summed up my thoughts on this recently.


    -Withers-​
     
  19. Kegg

    Kegg Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I never got that the Negh'var never appeared after "The Way of the Warrior", actually. You'd expect at least the model in at least one of the big fleet engagements. Gowron and Martok both showed up at DS9, after all, and they were the ones most closely associated with that ship in its first and last appearance.

    As far as Dukat goes I liked to assume the Prakesh was the same galor as the ship he had used reasonably often in episodes from "Emissary" to its destruction - probably the flagship of the Cardassian Order he was in command of at that point in time.
     
  20. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Here's a question for yah: what missions did such a flagship see? Kirk explored the frontier, battled demigods and supercomputers... How does a Cardassian survive a run-in with the Metrons?