7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Samurai8472, Sep 29, 2012.

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Grade "The Angels Take Manhattan"

Poll closed Oct 30, 2012.
  1. The girl who waited

    100 vote(s)
    64.5%
  2. Something borrowed

    35 vote(s)
    22.6%
  3. Average

    10 vote(s)
    6.5%
  4. Is it bad that I really miss this?

    3 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. You're Scottish, fry something

    7 vote(s)
    4.5%
  1. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

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    ^I thought it was called Freedom Tower as well:shrug:
     
  2. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wow, that was fantastic! Top marks!

    I think we all guessed the general gist that they'd be trapped back in time by the Angels, but I didn't see anyone guess the specific mechanism of the time distortions preventing the Doctor from landing in that time zone. Although, once he had a tough time initially, it was pretty obviously the reason.

    There are a couple of obvious ways of retrieving Amy and Rory though. For one thing, they lived to be over 80 years old. They'd naturally age out of the restricted zone of NYC in the 30s. Shoot, they'd live until 1980 at least!

    Or, he could go to that time zone, visit a planet with FTL technology and then pilot the ship to NYC of the 30s. Pick them up and fly back to his TARDIS. It sounded like only that specific location and time was off limits.

    Problems aside, I enjoyed it! It was a great way to send of Amy and Rory.

    Mr Awe
     
  3. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But, there are so many ways around it. At the very least, he could visit and not take them away from there. Or, he could take them and return them. Or, he could take them and plant a headstone for them so there is no paradox.

    In fact, placing a headstone to give the appearance of following a fixed point in time is exactly the same idea of wha the Doctor did by having a robot version of himself "killed". Give the appearance of fixed points happening but they really aren't.

    There's too many ways out of it to be believable in the Whoniverse!

    Mr Awe
     
  4. Mister Fandango

    Mister Fandango Fleet Captain

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    As I pointed out later in the thread, both the Doctor and the Ponds were both looking for a way out of the relationship they had, and they both knew that there was little they could do to make that happen.

    This solved that problem for all three of them. The moment the Doctor realized that the Ponds lived a long and happy life together, that was that. The dangers inherent to trying to "rescue" them far and away exceeded the actual desire to do so.
     
  5. Psion

    Psion Commodore Commodore

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    It doesn't need to be cheap and unfulfilling. We just move on without further references to the Ponds and with a shift in storytelling that gives the remainder of the Moffat era less of a fairy-tale atmosphere. Moffat never has to say it was all just a story.

    And thank you, Judge Death! I knew there was something else about Series 5 with weird timing, but couldn't remember anything specific.

    He also said he's been waiting two and a half years to tell the punchline in that final scene.

    Not a dream, Alidar Jarok, a story! Whether it was entirely made up to charm a little girl or based on reality with changes to make it more fun, doesn't ever have to be clarified.
     
  6. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not sure that I buy that they were all looking for a way out. But, for the sake of argument, let's say they were. All that means then is that there's no need to rescue them until there's an overriding reason, say the 50th Anniversary!

    Also, if they were all looking for a way out, I'm sure there'd be something better than dumping them in the past, separated from friends and family.

    Mr Awe
     
  7. marillion

    marillion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wow... Just wow.. Took me a while to get my thoughts straight on this... I too, teared up when they dove from the roof.. Then when they appeared in the graveyard, I thought "Moffet's done it to us again, WTH!!" but I was also releived.

    Then the shock at the end. Blown away and brought to tears again. I haven't cried at a TV show since MASH ended when I was a kid.

    My immediate thought afterward is how is the Doctor going to explain this to Rory's Dad... And what of Amy's family?
     
  8. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Yeah, I had the same thought, and I was hoping we'd get to see some of that.

    One thought that does occur to me, though, is that River still needs to write that book and give it to Amy to publish. In theory, at least, even if the Doctor never sees the Ponds again, River still will.

    The unfortunate thing now is that the Doctor has no idea where Amy and Rory are. There's nothing to say that their older selves won't try and track him down at some point. We don't know how old Amy was when she wrote the Afterward; for all we know the Doctor pops up just as she finishes it.
     
  9. G2309

    G2309 Captain Captain

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    I wonder if theywill properly kill off a companion again. This episode really made me appreciate Karen Gilian and Arthur Darvill. It certainly beat the departure of Billie Piper.
     
  10. Mister Fandango

    Mister Fandango Fleet Captain

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    We already know that they're visited at least one more time and more likely two (one for River to tell Amy to write the last page, and one in which to retrieve the book to slip it into the Doctor's coat).

    It obviously wasn't a plan, but the situation worked out. And, again, why risk destroying the world just to screw up their happy little lives when they are, you know, happy where they are. :) Especially since we know they can still be visited from time to time.
     
  11. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Yeah, it'd be one thing if they were full of crazy Angel temporal energy that prevented them from time-traveling ever again, therefore getting stuck in the past for the rest of their lives. But the idea that the Doctor can't ever SEE them again just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
     
  12. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    Playing with Psion's theory, you have Amy's boyfriend who is always loyal no matter what she does and would even wait 2000 years for her when called upon. Her issues with mommy not being around reflected in River both as her child and a mommy figure.

    I'm not sure I buy it but it's fun to play with.
     
  13. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with this.

    I actually think that there's nothing that would prevent the Doctor from visiting them. But the technobabble gives a good reason for him not to.

    They must have been sent to the 1890s.

    Rory's part of the tombstone didn't change from the beginning of the episode to the end. Thus, he had always died in 1938 and eliminating the Angel Farm didn't change that. If he was 82 in 1938 and he was in his mid- to late-thirties in present, then working back forty-five years, give or take five on either side, he'd have landed in 1893.
     
  14. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

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    Hey, they could meet Jack!
     
  15. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    That might be enough for Rory's insecureness to flare up again. :(
     
  16. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or Amy's
     
  17. Saul

    Saul Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Would have been nice if they could have expanded that end scene. Just have it a little longer, not a repeat of what we saw in the first episode of series 5. Perhaps have the Doctor show up in front of Amy. I thought they might have had the foresight to do a scene like that to save for later...
     
  18. marillion

    marillion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Zing!! I smell a spin-off!

    I don't, however, think they went back that far.. The tombstone was too new-looking, which to me meant that their natural deaths were more recent.

    Say Amy and Rory were both 35 (Do we ever know their real ages in the 10 years that transpired in their lives since they met the Doctor? ) If Amy died in 2012, 5 years after Rory, then that would have put them in Manhatten in 1960...

    God help Rory, with Amy being let loose in NY of the 60's. LOL!!!
     
  19. Admiral2

    Admiral2 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Those of us from New York prefer the authenticity, regardless of how much of it could have been faked in the UK. Did you not see the special that came before the show? DW filmed here and the sets got mobbed by american fans. That alone is worth the price of plane tickets and cargo charges, AFAIC.
     
  20. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And I wonder about the earlier statement of what a small audience the American Audience is? Doesn't the UK score about 8Million an episode and BBCA gets about 6Million? That's a pretty significant number compared to the UK number. Now sure, the percentage of available audience is much smaller in the US, considering our population, but, the way the statement was framed, first saying it was small compared to the UK, and then saying it was actually miniscule if you consider the Population difference, seems like you're saying 6Million by itself, is dinky, and even moreso by virtue of population percentage.

    Now of course, I realize the show is made for UK License Fee payers, but the Ratings outside of the UK do count for saleability of International airing Rights, and, having so many BBCA Fans of the show, does allow BBCA to pick up some of the Production costs for episodes set in America (Which means they are able to film on location outside of the UK, without it huirting their budget)
     

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