'300 years ago' , in this film's context, was the 1950s!

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by I am not Spock, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I really liked that they kept from changing the era Khan was from, and kept everything said in line with both Trek's canon and the Eugenics Wars novels. In fact, Khans goal according to Spock in ID was to "kill all those not considered superior" - which is what he tried to do in the second EW novel, once he realized that regular humans would never accept his rule.
     
  2. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

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    I've always considered the Eugenics Wars to be a series of separate but related wars lasting on and off from ~1992-2079 that were thematically connected by later historians, much like the Hundred Years' War was in reality.

    That way, if you want you can encompass any or all of the following into these separate but related Eugenics Wars:

    - Khan's and the other Augments Eugenics Wars of 1992-96
    -the confusion over the death toll in WWIII between Spock's, Riker's, Phlox's and other estimates (30/35/37/or 600 million dead), and also the confusion between whether Khan's war was WWIII or whether it was a separate conflict
    - the neo-Trotskyist revolts in Europe (though that seems more related to the global economic collapse of the time)
    - the nuclear exchange in WWIII in 2053 with the Eastern Coalition that killed over 600 million people
    - Colonel Green's earlier eco-terrorist conflicts and mass genocide in WWIII in 2026 that killed 37 million people
    - the post-atomic horror lasting till at least after 2079
    - the wars in the 21st century mentioned in "The Savage Curtain"
    - the genetic engineering of Dr. Stavos Keniclius well into the 21st century before it was finally banned and he was exiled like Khan
    - the still recovering from WWIII Earth in the 22nd century from "Up the Long Ladder"
    - Archer's great-grandfather fighting in the Eugenics Wars in North Africa, which would have to be long after 1992-96

    Hell, if you really wanted to stretch it, you could call the events of the Augments and Klingon arc in Enterprise S4 the last gasp of the Eugenics Wars, which could explain Admiral Bennett in DS9 thinking they extended into the 22nd century.
     
  3. Shatinator

    Shatinator Commander Red Shirt

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    THIS!

    :bolian:

    Love it when someone keeps track of the details creatively, when your flexible it become FUN again!
    :p
     
  4. Robert_T_April

    Robert_T_April Captain Captain

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    Its accurate because Khan would have born in the 1950's and was around 40 years old during the eugenics wars.

    Wouldn't that make Khan around 300 years old in 2258?
     
  5. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    That's certainly a very good way of looking at it. Personally I think they messed up the timelines a couple of times and it changed how things occured, which is why we get conflicting statements at different points in the franchise.

    Of course, in reality it's probably because the writers didn't have a clue how the timeline was supposed to unfold.
     
  6. DEWLine

    DEWLine Commodore Commodore

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    Having it covered by "ongoing arguments amongst historians whose papers the characters read and are influenced by" works for me.
     
  7. Maxillius

    Maxillius Commander Red Shirt

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    There are some radio shows that allege that perhaps the Eugenics wars are actually being waged now, the conflict just hasn't come to fighting yet.
     
  8. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Captain Captain

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    I'm going with this.

    And, yeah, 300 years is just rounding. I don't blame them for not wanting to mention the 1990s. I wouldn't want to either. It's the "Don't ask, don't tell" of Star Trek.

    It's safe to say that Khan wasn't born in the decade he was from. So, Khan being born in the 1950s makes sense.

    Rounding or not, it works either way.

    It was pretty much human error.

    Ron Moore used to do Q&A online during the '90s when DS9 was on. He said that he had the line "200 years ago" from TWOK on his mind while writing Dr. Bashir, I Presume? and realize he had a mistake until later, and no one else caught it.
     
  9. I am not Spock

    I am not Spock Commodore Commodore

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    I suppose we have to realise that all these characters are not historians. They may not be reliable narrators. McCoy is a doctor, not a historian.

    Admiral Bennett in 'Dr Bashir, I Presume?' may be the one with a faulty knowledge of history! (Ron Moore is off the hook!)

    I mean, in daily life, people don't often go around talking about specific historical events (which goes some way towards explaining why they never mentioned Jonathan Archer in TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY; there was no need for them to). And when people do talk about history, unless they're an expert in the field, there's often a bit of generalisation involved, and an amount of incorrectness.
     
  10. mattman8907

    mattman8907 Captain Captain

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    i'm reminded of something i was taught when i was in elementary school regarding rounding. it was like "5 or more go next door (meaning round up). 4 or less home is best" (mean round down). so 260 could be rounded up to 300.
     
  11. Devon

    Devon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So you listen to Coast-To-Coast? ;)
     
  12. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Remember also that when Kirk said to Khan that he'd been sleeping 200 years in "Space Seed", the Trek timeline hasn't been set in stone. "The Squire of Gothos" suggests that TOS is set around 700 years into the future.
     
  13. USS Excelsior

    USS Excelsior Commodore Commodore

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    We didn't see the Voyager crew caught up in the Eugenics Wars in Future's End.
     
  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ That's because the US wasn't involved in those wars.
     
  15. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

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    How is it that I'm managing to sit here in Southern California in peace and comfort and type at this computer while my country is currently involved in a land war in Central Asia?

    While there were moments where the realities of the war and its effect on people were brought home to the citizens of Los Angeles during WWII (Battle of Los Angeles, blackouts, Zoot Suit Riots, Japanese-American Internment, etc.), most days life went on fairly normally despite a war far deadlier than the Eugenics Wars raging around the globe. There were fewer young men on the streets and more women in the workforce, and they were producing a lot more military hardware and rationing more, but for the most part they still got up, got dressed, sent their kids to school, and commuted to work like they would in peacetime. While there were lots of changes, you can also find numerous photos of Los Angeles and other cities where the fighting wasn't directly happening during WWII that look no different from the same cities during peacetime.

    Plus, it was 1996, the year the war ended. Rain Robinson had a model of the Botany Bay on her desk. That could point to the war ending earlier in the year when Khan escaped and the city actually being at peace.

    However, IIRC, Greg Cox did incorporate some of the militia stuff from Future's End into the narrative of the Eugenics Wars, so if you're inclined to take that as part of the history of the wars, the Voyager crew were caught up in it a bit.
     
  16. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Archer's grandfather was.
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ The person, yes. The country, no. Just because Archer's granddaddy was from the US (assuming he actually was, which is not certain by any means), doesn't have anything to do with where the actual fighting was.
     
  18. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    I think you've read enough history and current events to know that the fighting doesn't have to take place in the combatants' home countries.