3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Robert Comsol, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Just to be sure we're seeing the same thing:

    "Mudd's Women"

    1. Four fist-sized lithium crystals (only addressed as "lithium" crystals). Seen and in dialogue.
    2. single Converter Assembly. Spoken of but not seen.
    "The Alternative Factor"

    1. Four paddle dilithium crystals. Seen and in dialogue.
    2. Four paddles in an "energizer". Spoken of and seen.
    3. Four paddles being "re-amplified". Spoken of but where and when were they re-amplified? Question - if they were re-amplified when the first two were stolen, why again were they still at the energizer when the last four were stolen when they a) did not need to be re-amplified and b) Kirk is counting on these last two for power, even if it is not full power?
    4. Converter Assembly. Not spoken of. Unknown if seen.
    "Elaan of Troyius"

    1. Dilithium crystals. Spoken of but not totals and one seen.
    2. Fused Converter assembly. Spoken of. However, we only see one blackened crystal in the holder. Question - is the converter assembly below and unseen and as Timo said the holder is just on some sort of mini-elevator to somewhere deep in the ship? We know that they fit the new crystals to the same holder, so obviously that is not the fused converter assembly since the holder still worked...
    What I'm trying to point out is that there are three different versions of the power system here probably from 3 different upgrades (in-universe). Still, there are some things in common:

    1. Four Lithium/Dilithium crystals (first two example episodes)
    2. Multiple crystals (last)
    3. Single Converter Assembly (first and last)
    EDIT: Regarding "re-amplification":


    In the context of this episode, it is specifically to "undrain" (I know it isn't a real word :)) the drained crystals. In other words, Kirk wanted the crystal power back to full power and that meant adding power back into the crystals.
    MASTERS: Whatever that phenomenon was, it drained almost all of our crystals completely. It could mean trouble.
    KIRK: You have a talent for understatement, Lieutenant. Without full crystal power, our orbit will begin to decay in ten hours. Re-amplify immediately.
     
  2. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    BTW, it'd be kinda tight, but you could fit the "The Immunity Syndrome" engine room into the engineering hull on the port side. Good observation Bob on the engineering crew getting thrown towards the entrance when accelerating forward. Kirk also got knocked into the entrance when the ship accelerated forward as well.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I think there's some confusion between "power" and "capability" that has to be blamed on "drain" ("deterioration" would have been better). If the crystals simply needed to be recharged, then why didn't Kirk say so as every viewer back then would have perfectly understood.
    If I understand correctly a practical use of crystals in real life is amplification and it appears the dilithium crystals had lost some of this capability. Though I don't see how this capability can be restored by "re-amplification" (a colloquialism, obviously) it probably works very well (like the infamous Heisenberg compensators :rofl:).

    "Re-amplification" suggests a restoration of original properties / capabilities of the crystals opposite to "re-energise" or "recharge", IMHO.

    Bob
     
  4. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    The thing is that if it were a "restoration of original properties / capabilities then the dialogue would've went like this:
    MASTERS: Captain, the crystals have deteriorated. They can't hold a full charge anymore.
    KIRK: That's not good. Go re-amplify them immediately.
    Instead, Kirk's "re-amplification" sounds more closer to the dictionary definition of to "increase the strength or amount of" (again) as in "increase the amount of energy again".
    MASTERS: Whatever that phenomenon was, it drained almost all of our crystals completely. It could mean trouble.
    KIRK: You have a talent for understatement, Lieutenant. Without full crystal power, our orbit will begin to decay in ten hours. Re-amplify immediately.
    Interestingly, when those same crystals got drained again. Lazarus uses terminology we're more familiar with, such as "re-energize" to recharge the crystal to full power.
    LAZARUS: That's very bad, Captain. If he comes through at a time of his own choosing. But I think if we hurry and you will help me, he can yet still be stopped. There's little time left. He meant to come through. When you accidentally passed through, it drained his crystals. It'll take him about ten minutes to re-energize with the equipment aboard his ship. That should give us enough time.
    So, in both cases, the crystals are drained and in both cases to put energy back in them, they had to be "re-energized" with Lazarus' equipment or "re-amplified" in an Energizer on the Enterprise. To me, that follows the dictionary definition of "increasing the amount of power" in the crystals, IMO.
     
  5. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Looks like the scriptwriter made quite a deliberate effort to confuse the audience with t(r)echnobabble. ;) I see your point but wonder if instead of "Energizer Room" something like "Re-Amp Chamber" would be a more suitable term. Maybe the crystals first need to be re-amplified before these can be re-energized?

    Great simulation of two adjacent engine rooms! In "The Immunity Syndrome" we do not see the cathedral and I wonder if the door to this engine room (difficult to see from this "EMM" :D) is there. The ladder may also be easier to access than our usual EMM ladder.

    Two of my friends made a suggestion which took me two nights to sleep over but I think they got a very good point: The main sensor parabolic dish assembly will probably draw a lot of power especially if it also provides the main deflector function for the ship.
    Next to the warp nacelles this is the third but biggest mechanical structure of the ship facing forward.

    It could require an engine room of its own which I think would also help to add credibility to the "triumvirate matter-antimatter-reactor" concept: One engine room (and cathedral) for each of the warp nacelles' reactors at the stern of the engineering hull, one engine room for the third reactor at the bow of the engineering hull (and one dilithium crystal converter assembly for each room holding one crystal - at least that was my original speculation).

    Assumption: The bow engine room is the one mostly seen in the second season (as it would enable me to keep the circular corridor accurate as seen in "The Ultimate Computer"). The dilithium crystal here is permanently in the floor casing (only removable when the reactor is off), the box on top is the "spare box" with the extra fourth crystal paddle inside. :rolleyes:
    The two (warp) engine rooms at the stern feature the slide-out cage for quick replacement of the crystal during momentarily shutdown of the corresponding reactor (the other two will take over its workload).

    It's a pretty wild guess, but could help to explain engine room studio set variations ("The Ultimate Computer" vs. "Elaan of Troyius" vs. "That Which Survives"), the double Season Two engine room aboard the Exeter in "The Omega Glory" and why at one occasion the sign near the main entry says "Engineering Section", then moves to the right side on top of a red sign and yet in another episode has a sign with Scotty's name on it (unless it's spare time fun of the engineering crew to move this signs back and forth) and last but not least why the power outlet used by Computer M-5 vanished in other engine room presentations.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If we assume that Scotty gave the order "engine rooms, cycling station"
    (audible on intercom) from the "Engineering Control Room" in the saucer in "The Naked Time", the existence of multiple engine rooms is less a subject of speculation but conclusion.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  6. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    The way this is shaping up is towards a generalised, decentralised Engineering Hull - which I like a lot!

    At first I was unsure about scattering the crystals around different rooms in the ship. To my mind, all 4 crystals would be together, in that pop-out box from Elaan (we just only ever saw the top quarter of the holder).

    However, this is starting to make sense to me - different engineering sections which ordinarily control their own parts of the ship (Impulse Engines, Deflector, port & starboard Nacelles) but which can (if neccessary) take over the workload for other areas during maintainence (or crystal failure). Scotty could be in any one of these Engine Rooms at any given time, depending on what was needed.

    The phrase "I'll be in Engineering" now means he'll be in a rough area of the secondary hull (or saucer) rather than a specific room and when Scotty talks about his "Engine Room" (singular) he is simply referring to whichever one is required for that particular task - everyone would know which one he was referring to, hence no further elaboration is needed.

    So, what of the bypass / convertor assembly? How does that fit into this engineering sprall? I think it must be at the central convergence of the energy transfer, otherwise it couldn't actually bypass anything. Perhaps it too has its own engine room?
     
  7. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    @Bob - In "The Alternative Factor" it is possible that the crystals were "re-amped" somewhere else and placed in the "energizer" once fully amped. However, since re-amplify was tied to the amount of energy in the crystals and it required an energizer or energizing equipment I think it is simpler to say it all happened in the energizer.

    As to "The Immunity Syndrome" engine room, it depends on if you think we saw different rooms at different times or the same one at different times as to what features it has :)

    @Mytran -

    As to the multiple engine rooms in the engineering hull, I figured there must be more than one. In the WIP, I placed them staggered in order to accommodate the width of the forward hallway in a 947' hull. If they were side by side, the EMM's would be next to each other and that would push the starboard turbolift potentially out of the hull.

    The bypass/converter assembly I think is going to be interesting. If there were 4 engine rooms with 4 crystals, then the converter assembly would have to somehow be connected together to function as one unit. The sticking point is still the rooms with the black box instead of the slide up paddle holder. Did those rooms show up only prior to the appearance of the slide up paddle holder or did they also appear in episodes afterwards?

    Or are you suggesting, a dedicated bypass/converter engine room that has the only slide up paddle holder that services the four dilithium paddles?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  8. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I assume general Star Trek audiences may already have difficulties accepting two engine rooms (one in the saucer, one in the engineering hull), three engine rooms in the engineering hull is already a difficult concept to sell and with four engine rooms I'm afraid we'll be loosing the audience (BUT: if you link two engine rooms at the EMM location, will that yield two engine rooms or just a larger, wider one? :devil:)

    I feel there is a beautiful symmetry with three: Three reactors (one in each nacelle, one in the hull suggested by That Which Survives), three different signs on the engine rooms' main door, three different EMM locations (if you count the "life support" of the Defiant from "The Tholian Web" to be a variation) - and three crystals for three rooms :D (you saw this one coming, didn't you?).

    @ blssdwlf

    Please disregard my suggestion with the "spare box". As it appears the rectangular box was only present during Season Two and replaced by the extendable assembly cage in Season Three (I'd rather like to assume it was one of Scotty's upgrades as I mentioned in an earlier post).

    As I see it now there are several options to (ab)use the engine room footage from "The Immunity Syndrome" (at least on a 1080' Enterprise):

    Connect the engine rooms on their EMM sides (as you essentially did), "normal" engine room will be starboard, "IS" engine room port.
    Advantage: Ceiling beams now make excellent sense, an open passageway below the EMMs connecting both rooms could justify to refer to both as one big engine room
    Disadvantage: It would appear that both EMMs are separated for a strange reason. Access to "normal" EMM seems restricted, access to "IS" EMM seems to be available from the main floor of the engine room (In IS Scotty is moving back and forth between EMM and main floor)

    Connect the engine rooms on their "balcony" sides, "normal" engine room will be port, "IS" engine room will be starboard.
    Advantage: EMMs are now next the outer hull of the ship and ladder ends there because there is no way further up.
    Disadvantage: Beautiful ceiling beam structure is lost

    Bob

    P.S.

    Check out the Constellation's engine room. I've counted three noticable differences compared to the Enterprise's second season engine room set (I find it hard to attribute these to individual ship variations as there were no such variations aboard the Exeter and the Defiant):

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  9. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    I would just like to quickly point out that there is much conjecture (based largely on the registry number) that Constellation may not have been a Constitution-class starship but an earlier class of ship refitted to Constitution standards. Perhaps the engine room variations are more evidence to that effect, since these changes were not present on Enterprise, Exeter, or Defiant, all of which were presumably new-built Constitutions.

    Alternately, the Constellation could be a Constitution-class ship just like the others but had received some sort of experimental equipment or was otherwise modified by her crew... a practice which doesn't seem uncommon in Starfleet.

    Either of these notions could explain why just one of these four ships seen on-screen would have a differently equipped Engine Room.

    I don't mean to open up a can of "Was Constellation a Constitution" worms in this thread... I'm just trying to address the Engine room observations.

    --Alex
     
  10. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    You are right and I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out, you are becoming the voice of reason when I get overboard with some ideas. :techman:

    Bob
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I would like to express the worry that we're giving a lot of weight to a number of crystals that is in fact established merely as a minimum number in one episode, and basically contradicted in another. The fourth is the final in "Mudd's Women", yet loss of four in "Alternative Factor" leads to fewer problems than the ones experienced when the ship retained one half-working crystal plus battery power. And in "Elaan of Troyius", a single crystal saves the day by restoring full warp fighting trim to the ship.

    I'd thus urge us to favor the interpretations where there can be as many as a dozen crystals aboard whenever Starfleet can afford them, but one is all that is truly needed. "Mudd's Women" would play out much the same if Kirk had sixteen crystals available but expended fifteen of them in the chase... Possibly full power calls for one healthy crystal in a key piece of machinery (a TNG style annihilation focus?), plus immediately available spares or the engineer won't risk the 100% setting. But whenever the ship has more crystals available, these need not sit idle, but can go to secondary applications where they do a lot of good (in addition to serving as main power backups if the engineer has the time and means to reroute power through alternate or bypass circuits).

    By having the operational crystals always subjected to antimatter bombardment, TNG style, one would create a situation where a heavily shielded dumbwaiter system is required for all the applications. This system could then have multiple access points in multiple, nearly identical rooms, but with very specific single points of vulnerability wherever the crystals actually get utilized.

    How much trouble would it be to pack four (or even six) of the later-season engineering rooms in the top levels of the secondary hull (always with two side by side and mirrored), assuming the forced-perspective set extension was taken to be no longer than it physically was on set, or possibly interpreted as somewhat shorter, even? The more, the merrier - and there could be several of the earlier, one-level-high rooms on the decks below.

    On the other hand, these supposedly are just control rooms. I agree that scattering just a few, asymmetrically at that, between massive pieces of machinery would make sense. And it might force the engineers to install snaking rather than straight lengthwise corridors in the secondary hull, to get past the machinery.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    However, in "The Alternative Factor", we know that the converter assembly was not damaged and that meant working bypass circuits. Even though the ship lost all four of her crystals, the bypass would still work and no immediate problems would be felt since the ship was NOT under stress like it was in "Mudd's Women".

    Yes, although it was clear in "Mudd's Women" that a single crystal circuit could power the entire ship in an emergency which makes it consistent with previous examples. Kirk might still have chosen to not heavily stress those crystals in "Elaan" by using the less power hungy torpedoes over the phasers.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Would a bypass circuit work without a crystal in it - or would every circuit of the type spoken of here, be it primary or bypass, rather be a "lithium circuit"?

    - When Spock suggests rigging a bypass circuit, he may be assuming Scotty has further crystals for the purpose, until Scotty says "we blew the whole converter assembly", meaning "we blew our whole supply of crystals, regular and spare alike".

    - When Kirk soon thereafter suggests the same remedy, Scotty speaks of all the bypass circuits being burned out; he could be speaking of the very circuits that were commented on as having burned out when the rescue of Mudd and his women was underway. That is, all but one of the lithium circuits would be "bypass circuits" for the single active one. And there would be no set number for the non-active circuits; on a good day, Kirk might afford a dozen, but when confronting Mudd, he was down to three, of which one incorporated a substandard, cracked crystal.

    Supposedly, something prevents Scotty from repairing or constructing a bypass circuit after the mass burn-out. The episode establishes that lithium crystals are a scarce resource, but not that anything else would be. The episode establishes that lithium circuits burned out, crippling the ship. The ship stays crippled. The simple explanation here would be that bypass circuits require lithium crystals!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    I still wonder if the important difference here is that the crystals seen in "Mudd's Women" are the TNG style ones and the others are the paddle style ones. I still think that the main reactors (of which there are four) use the TNG-style crystals and all the rest use as many dozens of the paddles as you want to make use of to fulfill all the roles seen in all the post-"Mudd's Women" episodes.

    --Alex
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  15. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I'm beginning to realize that the thread title could have just as well been "3 dilithum crystals to power the TOS Enterprise?" (:D) but please continue, by all means.

    There is just another Season Three engine room oddity I wanted to mention:

    [​IMG]http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x03hd/theparadisesyndromehd0308.jpg

    Shouldn't that wall with the yellow cabinet (holding the "trident engineering device" in "The Ultimate Computer", seen in "Elaan of Troyius" when Kirk tells Spock to get ready for a Vulcan Mind Meld just before Kryton commits suicide) be facing the cathedral?

    Bob
     
  16. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    The only problem with that is Scott is specific in that he has only one crystal left which means there are no spares. Spock's suggestion for a bypass circuit then must be for one that does not need any crystals.
    SCOTT: One lithium crystal left, and that with a hairline split at the base.
    SPOCK: Better rig a bypass circuit.
    SCOTT: Can't. We blew the whole converter assembly.
    I would imagine that the bypass circuit for the converter assembly is a starbase-level repair job because of the massive amounts of power that the converter assembly must handle.

    However, at the end of "Mudd's Women", Kirk picks up 6 crystals. That leaves us with these viable options:

    1. We see 3 circuits go out on screen and there were two more that went out off screen during the rescue operation. There are 6 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

    2. The Enterprise already lost 2 crystals prior to "Mudd's Women" due to wear and tear or other circumstances. We see them lose the next 3 during the rescue attempt on screen. There are 6 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

    3. Kirk picked up 4 crystals and 2 additional as spares. There are 4 Active crystal circuits in addition to bypass circuits that do not need crystals.

    As to "The Alternative Factor", "The Paradise Syndrome" and "Elaan of Troyius", there is nothing explicit on how many crystals the ship needs to run at full power. It might be four as seen in "The Alternative Factor" or six like possibly in "Mudd's Women".
     
  17. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I had also thought theory # 1 might be an option, but Scotty makes it clear that the 3 the audience saw burn out were the 3 that did burn out:

    SPOCK: What's wrong?
    SCOTT: I don't know, sir. With those three lithium crystals gone
    SPOCK: It'll take longer on battery power.
    MCCOY: Never trusted this.

    Theory # 3 makes sense to me. We've seen how quickly the Enterprise lost 3 crystals just by extending the shields for an apparently short amount of time and I wonder what happened to their crystals in Where No Man Has Gone Before.

    It's almost a lucky coincidence they are close to Rigel 12 (less than two days away) so better get some spares while you are being presented with such a rare opportunity.

    There is an interesting piece of dialogue where Kirk possibly and totally misunderstood Spock's question:

    KIRK: Stand by, Mister Spock. We're coming aboard with the lithium crystals.
    SPOCK [OC]: How many coming, Captain?
    CHILDRESS: Eve will stay, today at least. We, er, we want to talk.
    KIRK: Eve?
    EVE: You've got someone up there called the Enterprise.
    KIRK: Two of us, Mister Spock. Come on, Mister Mudd.

    I imagine Mr. Spock raising both of his eyebrows because to me that doesn't seem to be the answer he was looking for... ;)

    Bob
     
  18. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    In post # 35 I mentioned an "oddity" which doesn't have to be one if this wall has two yellow cabinets on two sides, which I think is what we're looking at.

    However, I discovered another one from "The Ultimate Computer".

    [​IMG]http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x24hd/theultimatecomputerhd0162.jpg

    Behind Kirk we'd expect to see a part of the "cathedral" and the wall (or one of these large GNDN props), but instead we see this:

    [​IMG]http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x24hd/theultimatecomputerhd0169.jpg

    Obviously a strange choice of the DP to create some background which isn't there and rather similar to the strange engine room shooting angles in "Day of the Dove".

    I don't know if this might be helpful but here's a link to a website of a gentleman who tried to accurately reproduce the bridge monitors: http://tap364.webs.com/engineeringstation.htm

    Could this monitor screen be a diagram of the warp engines and reactors?

    [​IMG]http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x24hd/theultimatecomputerhd0856.jpg

    Would be interesting to see if it were possible to give those screens a practical meaning.

    Bob
     
  19. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    That screen is when Chekov is asked to look at helm and navigation control so it is unlikely warp engines and reactors.
     
  20. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    True... but it seems to me that I read someplace that that particular screen was designed by Jefferies based on the fuel schematic to the plane he flew in the war (or maybe the hydraulics of the plane?)

    It's symmetry suggests to me that it may have to do with the engines (there being two of these... and they're symmetrical). Perhaps this is a monitor of the engines and reactors, but also includes information which is related to the ship's navigation capability?

    I dunno, but it is at the Engineering Station and seems symmetrical..... I like engine diagrams...

    --Alex