1701 warp core?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by kent, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Exactly my point. We don't know for sure a lot of the designers' intentions, but the number of hatch-like devices along the keel indicate that there was a lot of something going on down there. It's certainly the most obvious location.
     
  2. FalTorPan

    FalTorPan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Are the markings necessarily hatches? They might simply be markings.
     
  3. Captain Robert April

    Captain Robert April Vice Admiral Admiral

    The Starfleet pennants and registry numbers are just markings, and even they serve a purpose. The markings along the bottom of the secondary hull don't seem to serve any kind of identification purpose, plus they look more technical than anything else, so the most logical interpretation is that they're access hatches of some sort.
     
  4. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Agreed.

    I tend to think that there's a "color coding" scheme for the various hatches. When you see a white hatch with a red outline around it, or a white hatch with a grey outline, you have a pretty clear idea of what's behind it.

    For example... there is a pale grey "T" shape on the underside of the secondary hull, outlined by dark grey. There are also two pale grey "L" shapes on the aft top of the primary hull, also outlined by dark grey. I assume that both of those are access hatchs for fusion reactor assemblies. It makes sense - you'd want to be able to pull a reactor at a base and replace it easily, so you'd want it close to the hull surface. You'd want them to be near engineering facilities (and there's only one engineering facility in the p-hull, near the impulse engines, of course). And you'd want consistency in terms of physical appearance just for its own sake... it makes things easier (especially when dealing with different ships with different overall configurations).

    We see something similar in the TMP-era ships, but it's not the same. In those ships, we see medium-engineering-green panels over the "power conduit" runs, both for the impulse shaft risiing from main engineering to the impulse engines (along the sides of the dorsal) and along the inside surfaces of the warp nacelle pylons. Those don't HAVE to look the same... but especially if there are going to be dozens (if not hundreds) of ship designs potentially being serviced at any given time at any given facility, some commonality in terms of major-feature-identification would certainly be helpful.

    Sure, they'd need to learn the difference between whatever they call the "TOS-era" style and the "TMP-era" styles... but that's only two sets of marking styles they'd need to learn, not (potentially) hundreds, if ship designs don't have to conform to any sort of standard.

    For me... a "white with red outline" hatch on a TOS ship represents "cargo airlock." White with grey outline represents "auxiliary deployable hardware" (ie, it's a bay which can be outfitted with special-purpose hardware at a base). Light grey with dark grey outline represents "power system access." Yellow with red outline represents "deployable sensor systems." And so on...

    That's how I interpret it.

    As for why "all along the underside of the secondary hull?" Well, that's a low-load-bearing area (and thus well-suited for having hatches, which will be less strong than contiguous hull will be), and it's in a location which is minimally useful for other purposes (otherwise, the ship really should just have a flat bottom down there). It makes sense, at least it does to me.
     
  5. Captain Robert April

    Captain Robert April Vice Admiral Admiral

    Here's how I see it...

    [​IMG]

    Need to update that one under the fantail to read "Work Bee Hangar"...
     
  6. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You know, it also just occurred to me that antimatter doesn't actually EXPLODE when it contacts normal matter, but releases high energy gamma rays and other particles. Preventing an explosion would be as simple as surrounding the antimatter with a material that will absorb those gamma rays without explosively deflagrating.
     
  7. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Well, it's worth remembering what an "explosion" actually is... in term of the actual mechanics.

    An explosion is a sudden increase in pressure. That's literally all it is. What can cause that increase in pressure can be spontaneous generation of gaseous mass, or a sudden increase in temperature in an already-existing gaseous mass, or a combination of the above.

    So, for instance, if a matter/antimatter reaction produces energy which then results in heating matter, resulting in it being transformed into liquid, then gas, then plasma... and if that happens suddenly... you've got an explosion. It's not the matter and antimatter which "explode," it's the stuff that they impart their energy to which explodes.
     
  8. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    I may have missed the point here (not being a physicist) but isn't a great deal of energy also released when matter and antimatter collide?
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Energy has to be released in some form. In this case, the form we observe is radiation (mostly hard gamma) and kinetic energy (of those exotic particles that are created out of the radiation energies within the first eyeblink). Both of those would probably rupture pipes and hulls if they in turn released their energy into a medium traveling in the pipes or residing in the hulls. Or even if they merely impacted the walls of an otherwise empty pipe.

    I'd like to throw TOS-R in the mix, and go along with Cary's color coding scheme. That is, the big yellow roundel at the bottom of the secondary hull would probably be functionally similar to the small yellow rectangle at the bottom of the primary hull. An access door from inside to outside, rather than from outside to a piece of equipment, would be preferable, then (since I agree the small rectangle is an airlock door). And we do see the big yellow round thing open up and release a load of satellites in TOS-R "Operation: Annihilate!".

    There are so many other hatches at the bottom of the secondary hull that all the power system components that need ejecting can get ejecting. Perhaps the distinct white hatches are ejection ports, while the more subdued red-outlined ones are mundane access hatches that don't suddenly explode on your face, and the dark grey ones may swivel or extend but usually don't?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Anyone want to take a stab at the hatch behind the bridge, a rectangle, I believe it's yellow with a red outline.

    FJ's blueprints put a telescope there.
     
  11. Vance

    Vance Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Easy, emergency access hatch. It's replaced in TMP with a fully-functional docking hatch/airlock.
     
  12. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    In my "color coding scheme" (see post above) that is a "deployable sensor hardware" access port.

    I envision some sort of telescope that can be extended out from there. I'll admit that part of why I think in those terms is that F.J. established it as such in his blueprints (or at least I REMEMBER him doing so, though I haven't just looked to check, so I could be mistaken and I might be thinking of someone else's work). But it works, as far as I'm concerned. The one on the bottom is, as mentioned, for deployment of configurable satellites.
     
  13. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    There's actually TWO hatches at the rear of the teardrop section, a yellow one and a red outlined grey one. The latter might make more sense as an airlock, since it opens out onto the surface of the saucer.
     
  14. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The rectangle behind the bridge is colored the same as the circle on the keel. The circle on the keel was mentioned in an interview as being among a group of cargo and fuel hatches located in that area. But what is for cargo and what is for fuel? Since Jefferies placed the same circular hatches on the nacelles (and atop the engineering room) of his Phase II remodel of his original 1701 design, I take the circle on the keel to likewise be related to enginery. A fuel hatch of some sort -- possibly antimatter containment, possibly degenerate matter tanks. This fits the notion that the bulging belly on the secondary hull isn't mere aesthetics -- it reflects the extra fuel needed for a long mission. (In other words, a ship with more modest goals than a "five year mission" might have a more cylindrical secondary hull).

    That leaves the rectangular hatches along the keel (and not marked in the warning/danger colors red and yellow) to be cargo hatches. This reflects cargo decks placement below the hangar deck and possibly extending forward to the decks above the circular fuel containment hatch.

    So, where does that leave us with the yellow and red rectangular marking behind the bridge? I'd suggest that it is for supplemental fuel storage for the primary hull. It sits just forward of the long series of details that seem to be associated with the impulse engines. I believe it either reflects an original intent that the impulse drive was completely separate from what was going on in the secondary hull and required a separate fuel source, or it merely reflected the need for a backup fuel supply in case of emergency and/or separation.

    I should point out that my interpretation isn't meant to comport with that of Mike Okuda, et al, as expressed in the reSFXed TOS. While I agree with some of his team's choices, I think a much better location to launch the 210 ultraviolet satellites over Deneva would have been the fantail hatch, just under the hangar. But that's just me. I'm picky. ;)

    For anyone that is interested, some of these thoughts are illustrated here.
     
  15. Captain Robert April

    Captain Robert April Vice Admiral Admiral

    The rectangles up near the bridge are airlock hatches, the upper one for deploying the ion pods we heard about in "Court Martial" (I really need to work up a good diagram for that), the yellow & red one is a simple airlock.

    The ones on the secondary hull, I already described above. The reason I figured the yellow & red circle is an ejection port is because the coloring choice just screams, "STAY BACK!" And yes, this is one instance where I take issue with the choices made by Mike Okuda and his team. Having those satellites flying out of the hangar deck would've been a much more dramatic shot.

    I'm still trying to figure out why they'd choose the same color scheme for an airlock. Never said it was a perfect system...
     
  16. USS Jack Riley

    USS Jack Riley Captain Captain

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    Captain:

    I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on the placement of the ion pod. I think that, in some ways, it makes sense. The only problem I have is that, as happened in Court Martial (and we have no evidence as to how often the Captain has to cut the cord of the ion pod but given it is manned it can't be that often) the ion pod is now out of the ship's control. What is to keep the ion pod from slamming into one of the nacelles, the struts or the secondary hull (based on the direction in which the ship is going, the sudden surges in direction caused by the ion storm, etc.)? With a long cord, there is the possibility that the ion pod could get wrapped up around a nacelle or a strut during deployment or during the storm itself.

    Again, not disagreeing with you, just providing food for thought.
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I'd consider it a bigger problem that the ion pod isn't close to the hiding place Ben Finney had prepared for himself. He would have to be absolutely certain that nobody would see him exit the pod and enter the maze that is Main Engineering. Sure, with the ship at yellow alert status, he would have an inkling of where personnel would be stationed - but there'd probably still be far too many blocking his path from the top of the ship to the middle or bottom. Plus there'd probably be heightened internal surveillance as well during a yellow alert, something Finney could sabotage but wouldn't want to, out of fear of the sabotage being discovered.

    The location chosen for TOS-R makes good sense in this respect: it's close to the hangar bay, and we know that nobody goes there usually (since our villains or crazed heroes can readily borrow a shuttle without being intercepted). It's also one of the locations we already know to be compatible with the launching of stuff. And being at an extremity of the ship, it not only meets the above two requirements, it also serves as an instrument node that could plausibly sample the surrounding storm by extending beyond the ship's protective envelope (although the bridge location would also be good for that).

    Agreed on that... And if the color logic holds throughout, then the yellow square at the bottom of the saucer probably ejects the antimatter tanks on deck 11 that were mentioned in "Errand of Mercy". Those tanks would in all likelihood be for loading the photon torpedoes, then.

    The yellow hatch behind the bridge should eject something dangerous for this logic to hold, of course. Any ideas?

    The yellow bottom circle could of course still be compatible with launching of satellites or sowing of mines or deploying of comm relays or recorder markers or whatnot, even if it also is an ejection port for a major piece of antimatter machinery. Some aircraft are boarded through their bomb bays. If there's a big hatch there for emergencies, why not also put it to good use in non-emergencies? Especially if the stuff being deployed from there is laden with antimatter (mines, high energy satellites or the like).

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Captain Robert April

    Captain Robert April Vice Admiral Admiral

    Actually, you just made the argument for ejecting the thing when the turbulence got too heavy, to keep the sucker from slamming into the ship.
     
  19. Captain Robert April

    Captain Robert April Vice Admiral Admiral

    The setup I figured has the pod being deployed on the end of, essentially, a giant dryer hose, with a low gravity field inside which allows, in an emergency, for the occupant to just slide down the thing back into the ship. There's also a turbolift stop right there on the boarding platform, so all Finney had to do is slide down the hose and almost swan dive right into a waiting turbolift cab.


    The problem is that the location doesn't really lend itself to the logic that it'd have to be jettisoned under any circumstances. Plus, we see it blinking on and off throughout the series, which tells me that it's just another of the ship's many running lights (and in this case, along with all the other damage the ship suffered, it blew out).

    I don't recall any mention of antimatter tanks on Deck 11. In any case, it's about the size and shape of a door, so some sort of airlock or docking port makes more sense.

    Like I said, there are still a few bugs in the logic...

    I suppose there might be enough room around the antimatter injector assembly to accommodate some sort of system to boot satellites out the hatch, even if that system consists of a couple of crewmen in environmental suits. Anybody have an estimate on the size of those hummers?
     
  20. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't like the idea of deploying the ion pod on any kind of "tether". It seems too "Gemini 4" to me, with Finney taking the spot of Ed White. The ion pod can remain in the ship but can have some sort of extension that takes physical samples from the storm. If these samples are short "lived" or the medium they are captured in is extremely fragile, they would need to be quickly collected. The guy at the top of the duty roster goes down during the storm and collects them. The dangerous part of the job would be if the storm damages the pod in some way and threatens an explosion. Then you have to eject it and the person collecting samples gets sucked out into space.

    Interestingly, that idea actually fits with the imagery created by Okuda et al, which shows a "pod" located where the light switch on the 11 foot model is positioned. That light switch, to scale, would make for a mighty small pod to be climbing into.