“In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Scotty, May 2, 2013.

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  1. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Anyone who says you can't write a good science fiction show completely within an episodic formula should go have a chat with any Stargate writer.
     
  2. Danger Ace

    Danger Ace Commander Red Shirt

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    That is hardly a real or sincere or even a mea culpa of any kind. First and foremost, nothing is perfect. A generalized statement that Enterprise was flawed is a statement of fact not a reflective acknowledgement of culpability. It is a non-apology designed to deflect.

    It's almost like pleading "no contest" wherein they concede Enterprise failed, but refuse to say anything specific that could be construed as the failure being the result of their stewardship.

    It's funny, in the beginning I was actually a defender of Enterprise. Back on AOL's Star Trek forum some blasted the very notion of a prequel series and those critics were made even more skeptical by Berman making Brannon Braga the executive-producer.

    My position was simply the prequel premise was sound enough in principle and could easily work in practice. As for Braga, to my mind, new series, clean slate. I gave him amnesty and a fresh opportunity to impress.

    Enterprise, like the other modern era Treks, started off weak, but after season one was over I assumed they would do a postmortem for the purpose of making the necessary changes. Sadly, season two started off weaker then the previous season ended - It was actually getting worse and not better! By mid-season I was done.

    So, in my case, Enterprise drove me to go from champion to critic wherein Berman and Braga were the navigator and driver of that shuttle. I probably would have stuck with a mediocre Star Trek series, but Enterprise, to my surprise, fell short of even that low bar.

    It would admittedly be hard to forgive and forget the damage done by Berman & Braga even if they did give an honest and heartfelt mea culpa (with specificity),but it is impossible without it.
     
  3. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Braga was an inventive writer in the earlier series, and came up with some of the best mindblower episodes ever. But he wasn't good at sitting in the big chair. Berman was the opposite. Whatever talents they individually had, together they seemed to cancel each other out.
     
  4. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Damage? Bullshit. I love the show. And if you don't like it don't watch it. Expecting that these guys should apologize for not having created something which matches your preferences is fancentric nonsense.

    No artist should ever apologize for anything. On the contrary, if you work creatively a certain amount of arrogance doesn't hurt. To quote David Simon: Anything I've ever accomplished as a writer, as somebody doing TV, anything I've ever done in life, down to, like, cleaning up my room, has been accomplished because I was going to show people that they were fucked up, wrong, and that I was the fucking center of the universe and the sooner they got hip to that, the happier they would all be.
     
  5. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Using the words of David Simon, who started his career as a journalist, to defend Brannon Braga, who started his career as a television writer, is an injustice to Simon.
     
  6. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Why? Not that I am claiming that Braga is a better writer, I would just like to know why.

    Not that I really care that much about defending Braga in the first place. I have more love for Berman and am rather pointing out the ridiculous behaviour of some Trek fans.
    I don't like Orci's work, I think he is one of the worst writers who has ever written a Trek story. But I would sure as hell never come up with the egocentric notion that this guy should apologize for his work just because I happen to not like it.
    I prefer the good old days in which people produced a book or movie and did not have to constantly interact with the fans and deal with such appalling behaviour.
     
  7. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Why do you keep insisting everyone defend their opinions anytime they say something you don't agree with? It's obvious you like Enterprise. A lot of us like Enterprise, but are disappointed with how the show was executed. This isn't a debate class.
     
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  8. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    I don't mind strong opinions but if somebody thinks that his opinion is so important that it warrants the demand that show runners apologize for the work they have done for three years I do indeed have the audacity to call this bullshit.
    Fans want to be the center of the universe but they aren't.
     
  9. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    No where in this thread do I say they should apologize.

    But I do apologize to you for the "debate class" comment. It was undignified.
     
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  10. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    No harm done. Talking about debate classes, I wonder how they look like on Tellar Prime.
     
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  11. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I never took debate, I was theatre, so I'm automatically at a disadvantage. ;)
     
  12. bullethead

    bullethead Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think that Berman & Braga and the UPN suits share major parts of the blame. UPN brought near total ignorance of the Star Trek brand and a set of demands that creatively limited the staff (particularly the "planet/alien of the week" formula). B&B didn't have the guts to stand up to the execs and tell them that Trek and the writers needed a breather; when the show got greenlit, they didn't change up the writing staff enough to keep the show from feeling stale in the first two seasons.

    That said, I really have no problems with what Berman and Braga are saying. After about fifteen years of constantly being blamed for every bad decision regarding Trek, they finally get to say their piece. Whether you believe some or all of it, they're giving us more pieces of the puzzle that is the true story of how Star Trek was made and we should be thankful for that.
     
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  13. HolidayRomantic

    HolidayRomantic Phloxist Moderator Moderator

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    I do enjoy spirited discussion in our little forum. That being said...

    horatio, I think it would help if you would dial back the unflattering collective branding of "fans" as appalling, demanding whiners or whatever. There are lot of fans here, including a few Enterprise fans, who do not fit your descriptions, and this kind of labeling isn't productive. Okay? Thanks.

    In my case, it's more like expectations that are not met. Happiness equals reality divided by expectations. The Trek people told me to expect a lot from Enterprise, but I still mourn all the missed opportunities. I absolutely adore the show, though.

    I don't think any professional artist sets out to do bad work, to put part of their souls out there to be ridiculed. I think they try to do their best with whatever restrictions they have been put under. (Ever seen The Goodbye Girl? That is a great example.) And I have always found it a lot easier to see the flaws in other people's work than see it (much less own up to it) in my own.

    :lol: One of my favorite scenes on the show is the opening of "Babel One" with Hoshi teaching Archer how to insult like a Tellarite.

    Hey, I have one of these. Collector's item now, or just a really big coaster?
     
  14. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I sort of wish I still had mine, but I haven't had a phonograph since about 1994. It lasted about 25 years though, through over a dozen moves.
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I haven't seen the documentary but, simply, Berman and Braga were burnt out and it showed during the Enterprise run. When Paramount moved on from the 24th century they should've moved on from these two guys as well. They were too ingrained with a 24th century mindset. In my opinion.
     
  16. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    FYI: "Inside Star Trek" is on a bonus CD as part of the Star Trek: The Motion Picture - 20th Anniversary Collector's Edition soundtrack release from 1999.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  17. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I don't have any of the original films anymore, thanks to a former friend who turned out to be a thief and stole most of my prerecorded VHS tapes (more than 400 titles). Slowly trying to rebuild the library on DVD.
     
  18. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    Not sure what this comment is in reference to, but I'm referring to the soundtrack on CD from 1999.

    TMP wasn't released on DVD until 2001 in the form of the Director's Edition.
     
  19. Noname Given

    Noname Given Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You must not have watched TNG, DS9, or VOY when they were first run. TNG honestly (and rightfully) got blasted for it's TERRIBLE first two seasons; and actually didn't start receiving some positive mentions until "Yesterday's Enterprise" in Season 3.

    Similarly, I suppose you forgot the "DS9 is too bland/dark/npt GR's 'vision'..." cries from Star Trek fans during its first two seasons too.

    the simple fact is - there isn't a post TOS/TAS Star trek series that didn't have god-awful writing during its first two Seasons, and actually, at least ENT has a couple really decent episodes from its first coupl,e of seasons ("Silent Enemy"; "The Andorian Incident" "Fallen Hero"; "Dear Doctor" to name a few from S1 and "Minefield"; "The Catwalk"; "Cease Fire"; "Future Tense"; "First Flight"; and "The Expanse" from S2).

    Season 3 of ENT overall was on par bwith the best of TNG S3 and (IMO) S4 was some of the best Star Trek stories done since TOS S1.

    Now, I'm not disagree that ENT failed to capture/maintain enough of an audience, but honestly, and overall, it wasn't the writing or the production values -- it was most likely due to the fact that in 2001 - there had been (counting TAS) - 25 full TV seasons of Star Trek material produced to date; and 9 full length feature films feature Star Trek characters; an while I know this will come as a big surprise to hard core Star Trek fans; but after a while the general TV viewing audience says "enough" to a given set up. That's pretty much what happened by the time ENT hit the air waves; and I think it would have happened to whatever version of Star Trek (in the then 35 year old Star Trek 'Main' Universe) Paramount tried to put on TV.

    Overall, I say, episode for episode, the writing on ENT was above what we got from TNG and about on par with what DS9 was doing for it's first 4 seasons.
     
  20. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Apparently I misunderstood your original comment (bad eyesight). I didn't own any audio cd's in 1999, and didn't get into dvd until about 3 years ago.
     
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