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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old July 27 2009, 02:45 PM   #16
Cicero
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Re: The Andorian sexes

William Leisner wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
^It would have come up. Especially since Archer and Shran were so tight near the end
Really? So you discuss your bedroom habits with your casual acquaintances?

And I suppose, by the same token, Archer informed Shran about the freaky thing Erika Hernandez liked to do with her tongue...?
I think the broad structure of his marriage (for instance, how many persons he was married/bonded to) would be likely to have come up, excepting extreme cultural reticence to reveal anything about Andorian bonding to outsiders. Given Archer's curiosity, he would've been likely to learn at least a little about the fundamental differences between Andorians and Humans.

That said, I don't think there's any indication that he wasn't aware of four-person Andorian bonding (or of Andorians having four sexes) by the end of the series.
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Old July 27 2009, 05:24 PM   #17
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Re: The Andorian sexes

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
^It would have come up. Especially since Archer and Shran were so tight near the end
Not necessarily. It's entirely possible for two cultures to have such profound biases towards a particular system or state of being that it never occurs to them not to assume that another culture shares their bias.

For example, I've met many conservative Christians who simply never think about the possibility that somebody they meet is gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, or transsexual. They have such a profound bias towards heteronominativity that the possibility that someone belongs to the LGBT community never occurs to them and they never think to ask. I have seen more than a few of them openly insult LGBTs when someone else brought the topic up while in the presence of uncloseted LGBT individuals whom they had just assumed to be straight.

In my own life, I happen to have a profound bias towards the idea of sexual equality. I do not believe in male dominance and the idea that a woman might believe in male dominance and female submission as legitimate ways of organizing a relationship (even in a non-sexual, non-fetishistic context) never occurred to me, so I was quite taken aback when a young lady that I had gone on several dates with, and even spent an evening with, told me that she felt that I was insufficiently dominant and wished to have a more dominant man she could feel submissive to. I simply took it for granted that she believed in sexual equality; it never occurred to me to ask.

So I find it entirely plausible to think that Archer just assumed that Andorians have two sexes and never thought to ask Shran about it -- just as I find it entirely plausible to think that Shran might have just assumed that Humans have four sexes and never thought to ask about it.
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Old July 27 2009, 05:40 PM   #18
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Re: The Andorian sexes

^
Is that the lady you were courting instead of responding to my post in the Romulan States thread?
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Old July 27 2009, 05:55 PM   #19
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Re: The Andorian sexes

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
^It would have come up. Especially since Archer and Shran were so tight near the end
When the DS9-R first introduced the idea of the four-gendered Andorians, it was treated as something that Andorians don't really discuss with off-worlders, much like Vulcans with Ponn Farr, the Trill with their Symbiotes. It's hardly an unprecedented occurance that a species will keep certain aspects of themselves under wraps from others. Kirk and Spock were tight, but neither Kirk nor McCoy knew about Ponn Farr until it was Spock's time.

And I thought that The Good That Men Do integrated the four-gender thing perfectly into the ENT lit. Remember that Shran's "daughter" from TATV may have only existed in the work of fiction that Section 31 created.
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Old July 27 2009, 06:06 PM   #20
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Re: The Andorian sexes

rahullak wrote: View Post
^
Is that the lady you were courting instead of responding to my post in the Romulan States thread?
Negatory, sir. The woman I described who believes in female submission was quite a while back.
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Old July 27 2009, 06:32 PM   #21
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Re: The Andorian sexes

Sci wrote: View Post
The woman I described who believes in female submission was quite a while back.
I only believe in female submission during roleplay in the bedroom and only if we take turns.
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Old July 27 2009, 06:37 PM   #22
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Re: The Andorian sexes

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
The woman I described who believes in female submission was quite a while back.
I only believe in female submission during roleplay in the bedroom and only if we take turns.
She, on the other hand, believes that men should always be in charge, should make decisions in a relationship and for the family, and should in general make a woman feel dominated and protected.

As you can imagine, I rather strongly disagree with that concept -- male dominance inevitably leads to violence (whether physical or emotional) against women; it is about power, not protection. But, as I noted above, even such a fundamental difference in assumptions about how a relationship ought to function never occurred to me as existing -- nor to her, at first. We both just assumed that "naturally" the other would share our biases.

So it's not that hard for me to believe that Humans and Andorians might go a long while assuming that the other has the same kind of reproductive set-up.
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Old July 27 2009, 06:42 PM   #23
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Re: The Andorian sexes

Sci wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
The woman I described who believes in female submission was quite a while back.
I only believe in female submission during roleplay in the bedroom and only if we take turns.
She, on the other hand, believes that men should always be in charge, should make decisions in a relationship and for the family, and should in general make a woman feel dominated and protected.

As you can imagine, I rather strongly disagree with that concept -- male dominance inevitably leads to violence (whether physical or emotional) against women; it is about power, not protection. But, as I noted above, even such a fundamental difference in assumptions about how a relationship ought to function never occurred to me as existing -- nor to her, at first. We both just assumed that "naturally" the other would share our biases.

So it's not that hard for me to believe that Humans and Andorians might go a long while assuming that the other has the same kind of reproductive set-up.
I whole heartedly agree on those points Sci and I find women with such a viewpoint a turn off. Would you consider yourself a feminist then?
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Old July 27 2009, 07:03 PM   #24
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Re: The Andorian sexes

Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I only believe in female submission during roleplay in the bedroom and only if we take turns.
She, on the other hand, believes that men should always be in charge, should make decisions in a relationship and for the family, and should in general make a woman feel dominated and protected.

As you can imagine, I rather strongly disagree with that concept -- male dominance inevitably leads to violence (whether physical or emotional) against women; it is about power, not protection. But, as I noted above, even such a fundamental difference in assumptions about how a relationship ought to function never occurred to me as existing -- nor to her, at first. We both just assumed that "naturally" the other would share our biases.

So it's not that hard for me to believe that Humans and Andorians might go a long while assuming that the other has the same kind of reproductive set-up.
I whole heartedly agree on those points Sci and I find women with such a viewpoint a turn off. Would you consider yourself a feminist then?
I would, provided we're operating from the most basic definition of "feminism" - a belief that men and women, though different, are and ought to be equal and that neither sex ought to be given more power or influence than the other on the basis of sex, that no sex is "naturally" dominant or "naturally" deserves power.

There are other strains of feminism I strongly disagree with -- this woman's concept of radical feminism, for instance. But by the basic definition of, "Men and women are and ought to be treated as equals," yes, I am a feminist.
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Old July 27 2009, 07:05 PM   #25
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Re: The Andorian sexes

Sci wrote: View Post
I would, provided we're operating from the most basic definition of "feminism" - a belief that men and women, though different, are and ought to be equal and that neither sex ought to be given more power or influence than the other on the basis of sex, that no sex is "naturally" dominant or "naturally" deserves power.
Yep that's what I mean
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Old July 27 2009, 07:15 PM   #26
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Re: The Andorian sexes

Sci wrote: View Post
I would, provided we're operating from the most basic definition of "feminism" - a belief that men and women, though different, are and ought to be equal and that neither sex ought to be given more power or influence than the other on the basis of sex, that no sex is "naturally" dominant or "naturally" deserves power.
I'm not sure that definition is accurate. It's somewhat broad, and (though supported by Webster's and American Heritage) conflicts with the more specific definition provided by Oxford: one who supports the advocation of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

The latter definition is accurate to the history of feminism, which has primarily focused on recovering rights granted to men but denied to women, is accurate to the original French feminisme, and is accurate to both the general public perception of feminism and the female root of the word. Oxford specifically differentiates feminism from egalitarianism in general, of which it is a subcategory.

The Oxford definition of egalitarianism is: the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights an opportunities. The definitions offered by Merriam Webster and American Hertiage are very similar, which would lead me to suspect that feminism is defined insufficiently precisely by those dictionaries.
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Old July 27 2009, 09:51 PM   #27
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Re: The Andorian sexes

oh, goody, i'm egalitarian. i hold fundamentally true the belief that all humans are equal regardless of race, gender or religion.

except the French. they're just a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys.
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Old July 27 2009, 09:56 PM   #28
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Re: The Andorian sexes

Cicero wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
I would, provided we're operating from the most basic definition of "feminism" - a belief that men and women, though different, are and ought to be equal and that neither sex ought to be given more power or influence than the other on the basis of sex, that no sex is "naturally" dominant or "naturally" deserves power.
I'm not sure that definition is accurate. It's somewhat broad, and (though supported by Webster's and American Heritage) conflicts with the more specific definition provided by Oxford: one who supports the advocation of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
... I'm not clear on where there's a relevant difference in meaning between "one who believes that men and women, though different, are and ought to be equal and that neither sex ought to be given more power or influence than the other on the basis of sex, [and] that no sex is 'naturally' dominant or 'naturally' deserves power" and "one who supports the advocation of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."
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Old July 27 2009, 10:00 PM   #29
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Re: The Andorian sexes

^
Maybe the difference has got something to do with the level of activism. Not sure, just guessing.
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Old July 27 2009, 10:52 PM   #30
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Re: The Andorian sexes

There is no difference. They're clearly saying the same thing.
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