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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 31 2009, 03:16 PM   #1
Jbarney
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I actually liked 'Valiant"

This was one of the rare episodes I did not catch the first time through....when the episodes were on television. Last night I watched this one for the first time and while the episode was obviously annoying at times, I keep looking back and realizing I enjoyed it.

I could see an ambitous group of the best cadets picking up the mission when their commanding officers were killed. It kind of explored the affects of war in the sence that these youngsters joined Starfleet not really understanding the complexities or ravages of war.

Not perfect, not fantastic by any stretch of the imagination, but watchable and better than some.....
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Old July 31 2009, 04:34 PM   #2
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

I did too.

My two favorite parts:



And I another parts I kinda like:




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Old July 31 2009, 07:17 PM   #3
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

Yeah, I will say I liked the end.
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Old July 31 2009, 07:27 PM   #4
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

I liked it very much because the little snots got what they had coming to them. It would have been an awful episode had Red Squad succeeded in their plan, but because they got blowed up real good I found the episode quite enjoyable.

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Old July 31 2009, 07:49 PM   #5
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

Actually, I found the ending to be very tragic. What a waste of a perfectly good starship.

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Old July 31 2009, 11:09 PM   #6
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

Meh, there'll be a Valiant-A knocking about a month later, no harm done.
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Old August 1 2009, 12:44 AM   #7
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

I love Vailiant. A truly great episode. I'll never understand why most people hate it so much. If they succeeded, I would. But since they got blown to smithereens like they deserve, it makes it into a wonderful episode. The great quotation from one DS9 fan always comes to mind: "Thank God the Jem'Hadar can aim!"

I'll also never understand why Abrams' Trek is generally seen as a good movie by Trek fans , especially considering that they rehashed the Valiant plot practically scene for scene and the lame cadet kiddies actually succeeded and then got handed control of the entire Federation. In other words, Abrams' Trek is Valiant done badly, hence its popularity and Valiant's unpopularity is totally inexplicable.
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Old August 1 2009, 12:49 AM   #8
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

Navaros wrote: View Post
I love Vailiant. A truly great episode. I'll never understand why most people hate it so much. If they succeeded, I would. But since they got blown to smithereens like they deserve, it makes it into a wonderful episode. The great quotation from one DS9 fan always comes to mind: "Thank God the Jem'Hadar can aim!"

I'll also never understand why Abrams' Trek is generally seen as a good movie by Trek fans , especially considering that they rehashed the Valiant plot practically scene for scene and the lame cadet kiddies actually succeeded and then got handed control of the entire Federation. In other words, Abrams' Trek is Valiant done badly, hence its popularity and Valiant's unpopularity is totally inexplicable.
Except for the fact that they were absolutely nothing like the cadets from Valiant. (Unless you hold the belief that "a cadet is a cadet is a cadet" or "all young people are the same, those annoying brats "). But who cares for such minor details...
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Old August 1 2009, 12:57 AM   #9
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Except for the fact that they were absolutely nothing like the cadets from Valiant.
I don't agree. They were pretty much exactly the same IMO; the only discernable difference is that the Abrams' ones were given the names of popular characters.

And the scene in which 'Kirk' is telling them "they are going down, or we are!" is pretty much identical to this scene from Valiant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-sLkA8s0OQ
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Old August 1 2009, 01:01 AM   #10
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

Navaros wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Except for the fact that they were absolutely nothing like the cadets from Valiant.
I don't agree. They were pretty much exactly the same IMO; the only discernable difference is that the Abrams' ones were given the names of popular characters.

And the scene in which 'Kirk' is telling them "they are going down, or we are!" is pretty much identical to this scene from Valiant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-sLkA8s0OQ
So you're saying that their young captain was getting them in completely unnecessary danger because of over-confidence, while there were much better options available, and that everyone on the ship was blindly admiring him and nobody was questioning his decisions?

Maybe we watched different movies.
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Old August 1 2009, 01:13 AM   #11
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

DevilEyes wrote: View Post

So you're saying that their young captain was getting them in completely unnecessary danger because of over-confidence, while there were much better options available, and that everyone on the ship was blindly admiring him and nobody was questioning his decisions?

Maybe we watched different movies.
Yup, sure am saying that. 'Spock' even suggested they go rendezvous with the Federation forces, just like Jake does in Valiant. But 'Kirk'/Watters refused and then gives a big speech on how they must do it on their own and take the all glory for themselves etc.

The only difference, really, is that they tacked on a successful ending to Abrams' version whereas the DS9 version had a realistic ending instead.

I wonder if most DS9 fans would like instead of hate Valiant if the cadets had succeeded?
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Old August 1 2009, 02:41 AM   #12
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

No, I think their success is in that they were able to survive for 7.5 months on their own without any command officers. While I liked the episode, the actions of the cadets were predictable. Having them die at least gave the impression that war is horrible and unforgiving regardless of age or experience.
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Old August 1 2009, 02:48 AM   #13
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

I always liked this episode and never understood the hate for it. It painted why Red Squad (in-universe) was a horrible, horrible idea. When you single out a group and call them "the elite", their heads get big and they feel invincible. The cadet-crew of the Valiant was certainly competent, and they believed they could take down the dreadnought, but it was all overconfidence, and some blinding sense of loyalty to Watters, and some twisted form of loyalty to Starfleet. I enjoyed watching Nog get swept up in it, and watching Watters attempt (although ultimately fail) a balance between the ambitious cadet and the wise captain. At the end, I like to think that Red Squad was disbanded after this incident was made public. I think it's one of those good examination of the human condition kind of episodes. Taking a look at pride, loyalty, and the wisdom of knowing when you're in over your head.
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Old August 1 2009, 04:04 AM   #14
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

As usual, it's execution: Predictable. Comic-book-esque dialog. I cringed when they all stood around chanting "Red Squad, Red Squad." Woof.
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Old August 1 2009, 07:16 AM   #15
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Re: I actually liked 'Valiant"

To be honest Valiant is a guilty pleasure episode of mine. I actually do like it.
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