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Old July 18 2009, 06:47 PM   #61
Deranged Nasat
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Creepy, too.

Tell the truth...just not the whole truth. Slant it to fit the propoganda, and...

NEURTAL WORLDS OF THE UNIVERSE, UNITE!
It's not just propaganda. What Sci's Typhon Pact representative is describing is how the Federation DOES behave, whether we see that as a bad thing or not. What Sci is saying (but in far, far better terms than I could) is that if you're a small, unaligned, possibly needy nation, given the choice between a Federation saying "We'll help. You can join us, but only if you stop oppressing the hill tribes, become more democratic, end the practice of...blah, blah, blah" (making a deal out of other nation's "poor behaviour" while hypoctitically turning its back on worlds like Boraal), and a Pact saying "We'll help. You can join us, as long as you contribute in some form. End of story", well, they'll choose the latter, probably...

Is that a good or bad thing? Is the Federation necessarily right? Will Pact or Federation ideas as to how you build a galactic alliance come out on top? Well, that's for the books to explore
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Old July 18 2009, 06:54 PM   #62
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Re: The Typhon Pact

I think the books should also explore more instances where the Federation's high-minded ideals become an impediment and result in a few losses, not just in terms of lives but also in terms of political power, economic power etc. in the coming struggle against the Typhon Pact.
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Old July 18 2009, 06:54 PM   #63
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Except that's *not* how the Federation acts. The Prime Directive is meant to prevent cultural contamination on pre-warp (thus pre-contact) planets, to prevent societies from being manipulated with promises of lofty technology and miraculous abilities. The scenario Sci describes is the Feds acting like a dick, but it's not how they'd act, because said planets are already enmeshed in the politics of the Quadrant, and have been victimized by the Borg and are asking for help. The Prime Directive is out the window. Doesn't mean the Feds wouldn't act like dicks anyway, but the Pact - if they did that - would be intentionally misleading.
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Old July 18 2009, 07:02 PM   #64
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Except that's *not* how the Federation acts. The Prime Directive is meant to prevent cultural contamination on pre-warp (thus pre-contact) planets, to prevent societies from being manipulated with promises of lofty technology and miraculous abilities. The scenario Sci describes is the Feds acting like a dick, but it's not how they'd act, because said planets are already enmeshed in the politics of the Quadrant, and have been victimized by the Borg and are asking for help. The Prime Directive is out the window. Doesn't mean the Feds wouldn't act like dicks anyway, but the Pact - if they did that - would be intentionally misleading.
The Prime Directive is never out of the window. I may be wrong, but it doesn't stop applying; if I remember correctly, it just loosens and you have a lot more options when dealing with a warp-capable nation. But the Federation is not in the habit of handing out its advanced technology to other worlds. Yes, you're right, in cases where the world in question is warp capable they would help out, offer aid, because that's the Federation we all know and love. But it would be handouts, charity. The Federation wouldn't offer membership and access to the full technological benefits of that Federation unless the world in question met some very strict criteria. The Pact might appear less patronizing and more willing to view the worlds its helping as equals if it indeed operates as Sci suggests. No "we are holier than thou/we'll help but you are as yet unworthy of our full bounty" strings attached to any aid given.
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Old July 18 2009, 07:06 PM   #65
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
The Federation wouldn't offer membership and access to the full technological benefits of that Federation unless the world in question met some very strict criteria.
Which isn't really all that much. The only criteria are: 1) No caste-based discrimination, and 2) One world government. Apart from that, it's pretty much anything goes. Doesn't seem that bad, does it?
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Old July 18 2009, 07:10 PM   #66
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
The Federation wouldn't offer membership and access to the full technological benefits of that Federation unless the world in question met some very strict criteria.
Which isn't really all that much. The only criteria are: 1) No caste-based discrimination, and 2) One world government. Apart from that, it's pretty much anything goes. Doesn't seem that bad, does it?
Well, I think it's more than that (for one thing, having a unified government and no caste-based discrimination but a strong desire to "wipe those dispicable Rillopians from the face of the universe" won't get you membership ). However, yes I agree it's not too bad. I personally like that the Federation demands a high standard of its members. The issue is that needy non-aligned worlds might see it somewhat differently...
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Old July 18 2009, 07:16 PM   #67
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
The Federation wouldn't offer membership and access to the full technological benefits of that Federation unless the world in question met some very strict criteria.
Which isn't really all that much. The only criteria are: 1) No caste-based discrimination, and 2) One world government. Apart from that, it's pretty much anything goes. Doesn't seem that bad, does it?
Well, I think it's more than that (for one thing, having a unified government and no caste-based discrimination but a strong desire to "wipe those dispicable Rillopians from the face of the universe" won't get you membership ). However, yes I agree it's not too bad. I personally like that the Federation demands a high standard of its members. The issue is that needy non-aligned worlds might see it somewhat differently...
If they don't meet those two requirements, then it's in nobodies best interests for them to have access to Federation membership, let alone Federation technology.
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Old July 18 2009, 07:16 PM   #68
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Not too much! It's more than we've managed as a species thus far.
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Old July 18 2009, 07:18 PM   #69
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

Which isn't really all that much. The only criteria are: 1) No caste-based discrimination, and 2) One world government. Apart from that, it's pretty much anything goes. Doesn't seem that bad, does it?
Well, I think it's more than that (for one thing, having a unified government and no caste-based discrimination but a strong desire to "wipe those dispicable Rillopians from the face of the universe" won't get you membership ). However, yes I agree it's not too bad. I personally like that the Federation demands a high standard of its members. The issue is that needy non-aligned worlds might see it somewhat differently...
If they don't meet those two requirements, then it's in nobodies best interests for them to have access to Federation membership, let alone Federation technology.
I agree. That doesn't mean resentful nations denied membership do...
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Old July 18 2009, 07:19 PM   #70
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
Not too much! It's more than we've managed as a species thus far.
Good point, I suppose.
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Old July 18 2009, 09:46 PM   #71
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
I personally like that the Federation demands a high standard of its members. The issue is that needy non-aligned worlds might see it somewhat differently...
But, see, that's the thing. Those requirements are not a particularly high standard. They're something that any species should have. I mean, would we insist that a typical sports team is unrealistic in insisting that all of its members have some kind of athletic ability? Of course not. If you want to be a Yankee, Met, etc., you have to be able to run, throw and hit. It's only natural! So the Federation does not seem to be particularly 'demanding' in its minimum standards.

Besides, if a world's government is not unified, then how could it join the Federation *or* the Typhon Pact anyway? Who would speak for that world? Who would determine which of that world's nations would join? And what would happen to the rest who did not? It's simple logic, really.

Now, the question of what constitutes a true world government could also be debatable. Would Earth's United Nations qualify? It's obviously not a world government as we would understand the term, but for the Federation's purposes, it just might. If the UN actually worked, that is.

One other thing. We're all thinking there must now be a competition - will a world join the Pact or the Federation? - but it doesn't have to be. The Khitomer Accords include wildly diverse groups such as the Federation, Klingons, Ferengi, Talarians, etc. A prospective world can join the Khitomer group but not any of those smaller ones. The Federation should use that to its advantage: A world whose leaders are worried about being subsumed into Federation culture, would be reassured that they don't even have to join the Federation - they could simply ally with it as part of the larger Khitomer group.

In a very real sense, the members of the Typhon Pact are more closely integrated than the Khitomer Accords (shared technology and even currency), so a world would be *more* at risk of losing its identity if it joined the Typhon Pact.
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Old July 18 2009, 10:06 PM   #72
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Re: The Typhon Pact

What SCI said could enlarge that alliance and make more problems for the Federation.
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Old July 18 2009, 10:08 PM   #73
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
I personally like that the Federation demands a high standard of its members. The issue is that needy non-aligned worlds might see it somewhat differently...
But, see, that's the thing. Those requirements are not a particularly high standard. They're something that any species should have. I mean, would we insist that a typical sports team is unrealistic in insisting that all of its members have some kind of athletic ability? Of course not. If you want to be a Yankee, Met, etc., you have to be able to run, throw and hit. It's only natural! So the Federation does not seem to be particularly 'demanding' in its minimum standards.

Besides, if a world's government is not unified, then how could it join the Federation *or* the Typhon Pact anyway? Who would speak for that world? Who would determine which of that world's nations would join? And what would happen to the rest who did not? It's simple logic, really.

Now, the question of what constitutes a true world government could also be debatable. Would Earth's United Nations qualify? It's obviously not a world government as we would understand the term, but for the Federation's purposes, it just might. If the UN actually worked, that is.

One other thing. We're all thinking there must now be a competition - will a world join the Pact or the Federation? - but it doesn't have to be. The Khitomer Accords include wildly diverse groups such as the Federation, Klingons, Ferengi, Talarians, etc. A prospective world can join the Khitomer group but not any of those smaller ones. The Federation should use that to its advantage: A world whose leaders are worried about being subsumed into Federation culture, would be reassured that they don't even have to join the Federation - they could simply ally with it as part of the larger Khitomer group.

In a very real sense, the members of the Typhon Pact are more closely integrated than the Khitomer Accords (shared technology and even currency), so a world would be *more* at risk of losing its identity if it joined the Typhon Pact.
just by have a common currency and sharing technology
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Old July 19 2009, 12:57 AM   #74
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Re: The Typhon Pact

I think the books should also explore more instances where the Federation's high-minded ideals become an impediment and result in a few losses, not just in terms of lives but also in terms of political power, economic power etc. in the coming struggle against the Typhon Pact.
That alone would make the WHOLE series worthwhile, IMHO!

Have the UFP--and President Bacco--do some soul-searching, question the "values" which turn out to be more harm than good....

After all...as "In The Pale Moonlight" made clear...soul-searching (or, in writer-speak, "internal conflict") is good for drama.
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Old July 19 2009, 04:48 AM   #75
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Though I can hear a Ferengi make this pitch, it doesn't fly.

Posted by Sci:
"…Millions on the brink of starvation, entire food and water delivery infrastructure torn to pieces isn't it? Well, I'm sure you can ask the Federation for help.
"Yeah cause whenever we've asked you, you've said you don't bother with inferior cultures. Or as you put it, 'We can't afford it…our people must come first,' and then wagged your finger at that hypocritical commie Federation."

What's that? They only sent you a few industrial replicators? Why haven't they just shipped you 6.7 million food replicators (Earth and Alpha Centuari have plenty, you know) and maybe about 3 dozen industrial replicators to help you feed your people and get yourselves up and running?
"Because they can't afford to? And don't you use most of yours to build more war machines to conquer little guys like me to compete with the Federation rather than feed your own people, or heaven forbid help your neighbors?"

If they could, wouldn't the Federation make thousands of industrial replicators and use them endlessly? They'd make squadrons of spacedocks with dozens of nacelles and send them after the Dominion without need of the treacherous Romulans.

Maybe even give you some of those fancy-shmancy quantum torpedoes so that the next time someone comes a-callin', you'll be able to tell them what's what?
So they can go all Tezwa and end up causing a war between those who helped them in the first place and the Klingons?

That 'Prime Directive' of theirs. They still using that excuse? Really, it didn't go out the airlock when the Borg invaded and suddenly it looked like millions of your people were going to go hungry? That's disgusting.
"And where were YOU when we were being exterminated Tholia? Your entire foreign policy is that the Federation isn't perfect so we should join you in war against it."

"Anyway, here's the thing. Now, see, the Borg never made it to Tzenketh, Breen, Gorn, or Romulus.
Beloved Romulus is no more after the Hobus supernova.

"The rest of you guys are just lucky - the Borg would not have stopped at Earth or Qo'noS and all your worlds and mine would be gone. Furthermore, when the Dominion swept through here, the Romulans and the Tholians signed non-agression treaties with them and the Gorn were to busy in-fighting to care either way. It was the Federation and the Klingons who stood to defend this half of the galaxy from Dominion "order".

"What do we want out of it? Why, nothing. Nothing at all. Except, maybe, do us a favor -- could you send, say, Romulus and Tzenketh more shipments of dilithium once you're back on your feet?
That's what the Orion mob, er, I mean, "business men" said when they sold us warp and now we're sending them a third our GDP. Tell you what, get them off our backs, give us a seat in the Romulan Senate and we'll talk. No?

I expect more from the Typhon Pact if they're supposed to supplant the Federation as the galaxy's city on a hill. Perhaps it could be its own insidious drink. Liquor perhaps, to drown spirit and rouse anger. "Altruism and curiosity is for the weak and foolish. Life isn't fair and space is full of danger. We offer you our strength to believe in and our order to keep you safe."
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