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Old July 17 2009, 01:23 AM   #46
JD
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Christopher wrote: View Post
The one instance of conflict we've seen since "Arena" was in The Gorn Crisis, but that was with a militant faction that assassinated the sitting regime and was then defeated by Picard. If anything, the Gorn are indebted to the Federation for that.
And I belive that incident was used as background in Gateways: Doors Into Chaos, which showed the two powers working together during the Gateways Crisis.
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Old July 17 2009, 02:15 AM   #47
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Re: The Typhon Pact

^And if memory serves, President Bacco had made a name for herself by being one heck of a diplomat during proceedings with the Gorn (--and the Metrons, but that's not relevent to our discussion....).

Somehow...you'd think she'd have been able to keep the Gorn allied with the UFP....
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Old July 17 2009, 02:19 AM   #48
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Re: The Typhon Pact

JD wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The one instance of conflict we've seen since "Arena" was in The Gorn Crisis, but that was with a militant faction that assassinated the sitting regime and was then defeated by Picard. If anything, the Gorn are indebted to the Federation for that.
And I belive that incident was used as background in Gateways: Doors Into Chaos, which showed the two powers working together during the Gateways Crisis.
The incident is also referred to in Losing the Peace, on sale now at fine booksellers everywhere!
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Old July 17 2009, 03:52 AM   #49
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Sci wrote: View Post
LutherSloan wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Or, for that matter, take the Enterprise's and Excalibur's deliberate invasions of Tholian space in 2269 and 2298.
Don't you mean the Defiant? Or am I missing something?
Actually, it should be Excelsior. Captain Sulu had his ship brought into Tholian territory in The Lost Era: The Sundered, but it appears that my brain turned "Excelsior" into "Excalibur."
Ah, that's true.

I think that the USS Defiant (the Constitution class one) should be included, since it was stuck in that rift in Tholian space long before the Enterprise showed up...
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Old July 17 2009, 04:02 AM   #50
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Re: The Typhon Pact

LutherSloan wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
LutherSloan wrote: View Post
Don't you mean the Defiant? Or am I missing something?
Actually, it should be Excelsior. Captain Sulu had his ship brought into Tholian territory in The Lost Era: The Sundered, but it appears that my brain turned "Excelsior" into "Excalibur."
Ah, that's true.

I think that the USS Defiant (the Constitution class one) should be included, since it was stuck in that rift in Tholian space long before the Enterprise showed up...
Yes but according to a S.C.E. book the Defiant had incriminating evidence that the Tholians blew up a Klingon colony so the Tholians have incentive to not bring that up so much unless they want to remind the Klingons about that little incident.
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Old July 18 2009, 10:26 AM   #51
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Re: The Typhon Pact

I think what I'm most curious about is the identity of this union. What does it believe in? And is there anything that keeps it together beyond rivalry with that blasted Federation? How is this bunch of xenophobic adversarial imperialist thugs supposed to supplant the Federation in the hearts and minds of the galactic community?
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Old July 18 2009, 11:45 AM   #52
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Arpy wrote: View Post
I think what I'm most curious about is the identity of this union. What does it believe in? And is there anything that keeps it together beyond rivalry with that blasted Federation? How is this bunch of xenophobic adversarial imperialist thugs supposed to supplant the Federation in the hearts and minds of the galactic community?
To be fair, that's only how Typhon Pact members were portrayed in Star Trek - consistently portrayed, to be precise. One can assume that's only a facet of their cultures. The writers face the challenge to further develop these cultures both consistently with what was shown on-screen and so that cooperation among them and peaceful coexistence with the Federation can be achieved - no small task.

Of course, 2010's book schedule indicates that a new - perhaps inevitable? - cold war started. Not a development I look forward to - in my opinion, treklit really went overboard with death and destruction recently.
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Old July 18 2009, 12:19 PM   #53
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Arpy wrote: View Post
I think what I'm most curious about is the identity of this union. What does it believe in?
Apparently, it believes in diversity and unity and equality... and in not being culturally assimilated by the Federation.

And is there anything that keeps it together beyond rivalry with that blasted Federation? How is this bunch of xenophobic adversarial imperialist thugs supposed to supplant the Federation in the hearts and minds of the galactic community?
As I have pointed out several times in this thread, not every member of the Typhon Pact is a xenophobic, adversarial, imperialist thug.

The Gorn Hegemony is clearly not xenophobic, adversarial, or imperialist. The Tzenkethi Coalition is anti-Federation, but there's no evidence that that extends to other cultures. The Romulans are more isolationist than they are anything else, and frankly they're going to be busy desperately getting the Pact to help them avoid economic collapse. The Breen have only one incident of imperialism in their history, albeit a very recent one. The Kinshaya are adversarial more to the Klingons, and they were the victims of a genocide attempt. The Tholians are adversarial towards the Federation, but there again the Federation has a history of screwing them over in the name of naked self-interest.
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Old July 18 2009, 12:47 PM   #54
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Re: The Typhon Pact

And one of the quickest ways they could start winning non-aligned worlds to their side and alienate them from the Federation would be to start sharing technology.

"Hey, you. Yeah, you there. You're the President of the Barzanian Planetary Republic, arencha? How ya doin', how's it goin'? What? What's that? Two Borg cubes were in the process of exterminating your planet when they suddenly shot each other? Well, yeah, hey, you know, you're real lucky that no cubes came back afterwards. Even the Federation lost a lot of worlds, too. Pandril. Coridan. Rhaandarel. You don't wanna be like Rhaandarel, do you?

"Anway, I bet all the Tholian silk on my back -- got that real cheap once Romulus joined the Typhon Pact, by the way; no tariffs! -- that you've got a lot of people suffering, don't you? Yeah? Millions on the brink of starvation, entire food and water delivery infrastructure torn to pieces isn't it? Well, I'm sure you can ask the Federation for help. What's that? They only sent you a few industrial replicators? Why haven't they just shipped you 6.7 million food replicators (Earth and Alpha Centuari have plenty, you know) and maybe about 3 dozen industrial replicators to help you feed your people and get yourselves up and running? Maybe even give you some of those fancy-shmancy quantum torpedoes so that the next time someone comes a-callin', you'll be able to tell them what's what?

"What? Oh, they refuse, just like back before the Borg? Really? Why's that? Ooooh. Yeah. That 'Prime Directive' of theirs. They still using that excuse? Really, it didn't go out the airlock when the Borg invaded and suddenly it looked like millions of your people were going to go hungry? That's disgusting.

"Of course, this isn't the first time they've done something like that to you, is it? Yeah, I remember. 'Bout fifteen years ago, they were going to pay you all kinds of money and resources to gain access to that wormhole of yours. How were you supposed to know it wasn't stable? It looked like it, didn't it? I mean, think of all the good those resources could have done. All the improvements you could have made to your society. Fascinating how the instant that wormhole disappears -- and funny how it happened 'cos of a couple of Ferengi; the Feds invited the Ferengi to join their new Khitomer Alliance, didn't they? -- Fascinating how the instant that wormhole went away, so did that so-called altruistic Federation. But I suppose you should just be grateful it wasn't worse. I hear the Federation was all set to let the entire Boraalian civilization go extinct before someone broke the law to force a starship to relocate them. Funny how that Federation's basically guilty of passive genocide even though they claim they're so much better than everyone else, isn't it?

"Anyway, here's the thing. Now, see, the Borg never made it to Tzenketh, Breen, Gorn, or Romulus. Now, Romulus has been having some troubles of its own because of Shinzon -- a Human, I might add; funny how that turns out, isn't it? -- but the others, they don't want to see the Barzanian people suffer. Don't want to see it at all. You're good people, you've been good trading partners with all of us, and we would never want to see millions die. We'll do anything we can to stop it. So, here's what I'm thinking. You probably need something like 7 million home food replicators, right? Send 'em out to the cities, one replicator can probably feed entire neighborhoods full of people for weeks at a time before it needs recharging. You're probably going to need some energy production facilities, too, right?

"Here's the deal: The Typhon Pact will send you, free of charge, 16 million home replicators from Gorn. Yeah, I know, the pre-loaded food's not that great, but it's edible, and you can add new stuff to it later on. Use them wisely. We'll send you, I'm thinking, 30 industrial replicators from Tzenketh -- hey, you know the stuff on Tzenketh is good, it's gotta be to deal with all those windstorms. And on top of that, I'm thinking, we go ahead and we send you, like, maybe 175 Breen energy-dampening weapons. The kind they used in the Dominion War? Yep, that's the one! I mean, think about it. Those babies destroyed Federation starships. You know they can take care of most problems for ya. The Federates would never share that with you, would they? Funny how that 'Prime Directive' of theirs preserves their own military dominance when they say it's only to 'protect' us immature cultures, isn't it?

"What do we want out of it? Why, nothing. Nothing at all. Except, maybe, do us a favor -- could you send, say, Romulus and Tzenketh more shipments of dilithium once you're back on your feet? What's that, you'd have to cut down your shipments to the Federation, and the Federation really needs dilithium right now? Well, yeah, maybe, but it's not like they're willing to help you out all that much. What have they done for you lately, besides deny you vital military assistance and humanitarian aid? Not much, that's right. They'll just have to handle their own problems. Besides, they have those fancy new slipstream drives -- not likely to share those with anyone else, are they?...."
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Old July 18 2009, 03:48 PM   #55
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Re: The Typhon Pact

ooo, i like this, where do i sign up to be a part of the pact? i want their help.
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Old July 18 2009, 04:24 PM   #56
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Sci wrote: View Post
The Kinshaya are adversarial more to the Klingons, and they were the victims of a genocide attempt.
In fact, didn't it say in A Singular Destiny that the Kinshaya have had either very little or no contact with the Federation.
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Old July 18 2009, 04:39 PM   #57
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Re: The Typhon Pact

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Of course, 2010's book schedule indicates that a new - perhaps inevitable? - cold war started. Not a development I look forward to - in my opinion, treklit really went overboard with death and destruction recently.
Um since when has Cold War ment death and destruction, if anything throughout most of Trek's history the Federation has BEEN in a Cold War with someone the most that usually happens in those instances is some saber rattling and a few isolated skirmishes.

I mean was there death and destruction when the Federation and Klingons were having there Cold War in the 23rd century. Was there death and destruction when the Federation was having a Cold War with the Romulans in the 23rd and 24th centuries.
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Old July 18 2009, 05:56 PM   #58
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Sci wrote: View Post
And one of the quickest ways they could start winning non-aligned worlds to their side and alienate them from the Federation would be to start sharing technology.

"Hey, you. Yeah, you there. You're the President of the Barzanian Planetary Republic, arencha? How ya doin', how's it goin'? What? What's that? Two Borg cubes were in the process of exterminating your planet when they suddenly shot each other? Well, yeah, hey, you know, you're real lucky that no cubes came back afterwards. Even the Federation lost a lot of worlds, too. Pandril. Coridan. Rhaandarel. You don't wanna be like Rhaandarel, do you?

"Anway, I bet all the Tholian silk on my back -- got that real cheap once Romulus joined the Typhon Pact, by the way; no tariffs! -- that you've got a lot of people suffering, don't you? Yeah? Millions on the brink of starvation, entire food and water delivery infrastructure torn to pieces isn't it? Well, I'm sure you can ask the Federation for help. What's that? They only sent you a few industrial replicators? Why haven't they just shipped you 6.7 million food replicators (Earth and Alpha Centuari have plenty, you know) and maybe about 3 dozen industrial replicators to help you feed your people and get yourselves up and running? Maybe even give you some of those fancy-shmancy quantum torpedoes so that the next time someone comes a-callin', you'll be able to tell them what's what?

"What? Oh, they refuse, just like back before the Borg? Really? Why's that? Ooooh. Yeah. That 'Prime Directive' of theirs. They still using that excuse? Really, it didn't go out the airlock when the Borg invaded and suddenly it looked like millions of your people were going to go hungry? That's disgusting.

"Of course, this isn't the first time they've done something like that to you, is it? Yeah, I remember. 'Bout fifteen years ago, they were going to pay you all kinds of money and resources to gain access to that wormhole of yours. How were you supposed to know it wasn't stable? It looked like it, didn't it? I mean, think of all the good those resources could have done. All the improvements you could have made to your society. Fascinating how the instant that wormhole disappears -- and funny how it happened 'cos of a couple of Ferengi; the Feds invited the Ferengi to join their new Khitomer Alliance, didn't they? -- Fascinating how the instant that wormhole went away, so did that so-called altruistic Federation. But I suppose you should just be grateful it wasn't worse. I hear the Federation was all set to let the entire Boraalian civilization go extinct before someone broke the law to force a starship to relocate them. Funny how that Federation's basically guilty of passive genocide even though they claim they're so much better than everyone else, isn't it?

"Anyway, here's the thing. Now, see, the Borg never made it to Tzenketh, Breen, Gorn, or Romulus. Now, Romulus has been having some troubles of its own because of Shinzon -- a Human, I might add; funny how that turns out, isn't it? -- but the others, they don't want to see the Barzanian people suffer. Don't want to see it at all. You're good people, you've been good trading partners with all of us, and we would never want to see millions die. We'll do anything we can to stop it. So, here's what I'm thinking. You probably need something like 7 million home food replicators, right? Send 'em out to the cities, one replicator can probably feed entire neighborhoods full of people for weeks at a time before it needs recharging. You're probably going to need some energy production facilities, too, right?

"Here's the deal: The Typhon Pact will send you, free of charge, 16 million home replicators from Gorn. Yeah, I know, the pre-loaded food's not that great, but it's edible, and you can add new stuff to it later on. Use them wisely. We'll send you, I'm thinking, 30 industrial replicators from Tzenketh -- hey, you know the stuff on Tzenketh is good, it's gotta be to deal with all those windstorms. And on top of that, I'm thinking, we go ahead and we send you, like, maybe 175 Breen energy-dampening weapons. The kind they used in the Dominion War? Yep, that's the one! I mean, think about it. Those babies destroyed Federation starships. You know they can take care of most problems for ya. The Federates would never share that with you, would they? Funny how that 'Prime Directive' of theirs preserves their own military dominance when they say it's only to 'protect' us immature cultures, isn't it?

"What do we want out of it? Why, nothing. Nothing at all. Except, maybe, do us a favor -- could you send, say, Romulus and Tzenketh more shipments of dilithium once you're back on your feet? What's that, you'd have to cut down your shipments to the Federation, and the Federation really needs dilithium right now? Well, yeah, maybe, but it's not like they're willing to help you out all that much. What have they done for you lately, besides deny you vital military assistance and humanitarian aid? Not much, that's right. They'll just have to handle their own problems. Besides, they have those fancy new slipstream drives -- not likely to share those with anyone else, are they?...."
Wow, that's...well, quite excellent. I hope the actual Typhon Pact books are half as fascinating as I found this!
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Old July 18 2009, 06:00 PM   #59
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Re: The Typhon Pact

^@Sci

That was awesome!

Also reminded me of this: "The path to hell is paved with good intentions.."
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Old July 18 2009, 06:28 PM   #60
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Creepy, too.

Tell the truth...just not the whole truth. Slant it to fit the propoganda, and...

NEURTAL WORLDS OF THE UNIVERSE, UNITE!
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