RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,406
Posts: 5,506,049
Members: 25,128
Currently online: 617
Newest member: Deidesheim

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 7 2009, 12:02 AM   #166
Thrawn
Rear Admiral
 
Thrawn's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

BillJ wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

So you agree they are gouging the suckers?
You really love hyperbole.

I love New Frontier. I'm willing to spend $11 for a New Frontier book; hell, I was willing to spend $20 back when they came out in hardcover. Thus, I do. The content is worth the price, so I pay it. I am thus a satisfied customer.

Am I a sucker? Am I being gouged?
At least with a hardcover I can see a reason for a premium to be charged and the consumer can still purcahse the material at a later date for a cheaper price if they choose not to purchase the hardcover. I see none of this with the trade paperbacks.
Ok, let's summarize.

1) Many people made the argument that trades would lose Pocket money. At best, that's an argument that cannot be answered with facts, since we won't get them, and at worst it seems silly since bookstores are well known to prefer trades and the greater profit they bring.

2) Many people said they couldn't see why Pocket would charge more for 'the same amount of content'. I explained why Pocket would do that, and you seem to understand it. So we're done with that; we understand why Pocket would do this, we understand that it won't lead them to ruin.

3) That leaves us with you, the consumer. You first made an argument that charging more for the same word count was bad; I explained why that was inane, something you haven't challenged. So let's assume you acknowledge you were being silly about that.

BUT...

4) It's still your right to buy whatever you want to buy. If you don't think New Frontier is worth $11, then don't buy it. No one gives a shit. But at this point, all that is is personal preference, which can't be argued in any case.

So you don't have to buy it, I'll be happy to, and Pocket will either make enough money to justify future trades or they won't. I mean, Pocket only reprinted hardcovers as MMPBs because it was profitable, not out of an altruistic desire to make customers happy. If this doesn't make them money, they won't keep doing it. And if you don't buy it, you'll do your part to make that happen. And then your job as a consumer is done, their best interests as a publisher will have been executed to the best of their ability, and life moves on.

But don't get mad at people that disagree or infer that just because you're irritated Pocket is being stupid or dooming itself. They know that way better than you.
Thrawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 07:35 AM   #167
AN_D_K
Commander
 
Location: UK
View AN_D_K's Twitter Profile
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

I suppose when it boils down to it, if TPBs were gotten rid of then we'd be back to the system of having a hardcover out a year before the paperback. My wallet and shelf can't handle that.
AN_D_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 04:50 PM   #168
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

Thrawn wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post

You really love hyperbole.

I love New Frontier. I'm willing to spend $11 for a New Frontier book; hell, I was willing to spend $20 back when they came out in hardcover. Thus, I do. The content is worth the price, so I pay it. I am thus a satisfied customer.

Am I a sucker? Am I being gouged?
At least with a hardcover I can see a reason for a premium to be charged and the consumer can still purcahse the material at a later date for a cheaper price if they choose not to purchase the hardcover. I see none of this with the trade paperbacks.
Ok, let's summarize.

1) Many people made the argument that trades would lose Pocket money. At best, that's an argument that cannot be answered with facts, since we won't get them, and at worst it seems silly since bookstores are well known to prefer trades and the greater profit they bring.

2) Many people said they couldn't see why Pocket would charge more for 'the same amount of content'. I explained why Pocket would do that, and you seem to understand it. So we're done with that; we understand why Pocket would do this, we understand that it won't lead them to ruin.

3) That leaves us with you, the consumer. You first made an argument that charging more for the same word count was bad; I explained why that was inane, something you haven't challenged. So let's assume you acknowledge you were being silly about that.

BUT...

4) It's still your right to buy whatever you want to buy. If you don't think New Frontier is worth $11, then don't buy it. No one gives a shit. But at this point, all that is is personal preference, which can't be argued in any case.

So you don't have to buy it, I'll be happy to, and Pocket will either make enough money to justify future trades or they won't. I mean, Pocket only reprinted hardcovers as MMPBs because it was profitable, not out of an altruistic desire to make customers happy. If this doesn't make them money, they won't keep doing it. And if you don't buy it, you'll do your part to make that happen. And then your job as a consumer is done, their best interests as a publisher will have been executed to the best of their ability, and life moves on.

But don't get mad at people that disagree or infer that just because you're irritated Pocket is being stupid or dooming itself. They know that way better than you.
1) If you actually read all the posts, you would have seen that Allyn Gibson and I had already discussed this point. Reading comprehension is your friend.

2) You continue to ignore the question of what makes a TPB worth the excessive price. Whether a movie is ninety minutes or two and a half hours I'm paying the same $9.75 to get in. MMPB are between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for X price. TPB are slightly larger in size, between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for nearly twice the price.

3) It is bad when a corporation exploits its customers. This is exactly the same thing as when Paramount was charging $140 a season for Star Trek. Just because you like to grab your ankles when Dave Matthews comes to town doesn't mean everyone does.

4) You're right. I don't have to buy it. But Pocket should be worried when they chase someone like me away with excessive pricing (good income, like to buy whatever has the label on it).

Plus you're the one who came into the discussion with the attitude of an insufferable ass. Might want to tone it down in the future.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 05:07 PM   #169
seigezunt
Vice Admiral
 
seigezunt's Avatar
 
Location: Splashing on some Tiberius before a night on the town
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

AN_D_K wrote: View Post
The problem with the larger TPB is that no one seems to care about how bad it looks on my shelf with all the books in a row.
I like them, because they look better next to my hardcovers. I miss the hardcovers (to the point I've been collecting the Gregg press editions), but this is a fair substitute.

By the way, I'm not a fan of a lot of the covers of the books recently. They just seem like uninspired pictures of people standing around badly photoshopped onto a bland background.
agree with the PS comment.
__________________
I am constantly surprised by the close-mindedness of some fans...this means change as well as a positive attitude. Without those things, how can we ever achieve that Trek future we enjoyed so much on TV? --Bjo Trimble
seigezunt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 05:24 PM   #170
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

BillJ wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

You're talking apples and oranges and you know it. A fifty cent across the board increase is expected from time to time. Charging $8.99 for one ninety thousand word novel and then charging $16.00 for another ninety thousand word novel is ridiculous.
This is also silly.

Like, I'll pay $75 for a 2-hour concert if it's Dave Matthews Band, because I like them better. But I may only pay $20 for some other band I don't know as well, because I like them less.

You're not paying for the number of words, you're paying for their content.

You may as well complain that Troublesome Minds and Crucible:McCoy were the same price; the latter was something like 4x as long as the former. Do you refuse to purchase Troublesome Minds?
So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?
No, they're saying that they think the demand curve intersects with the supply curve at the point that creates an equilibrium price of $8.99 for MMPBs and $16.00 for TPBs.

ETA:

Also, get the fuck over it.

The demand currently exists for TPBs, even if you don't enjoy them. If enough customers begin to agree with you, the demand curve for TPBs will become sufficiently low as to render it no longer profitable to make them, and Pocket will revert back to publishing novels as MMPBs. Welcome to capitalism, where the market does not always meet the will of the individual customer. If it bothers you that much, just borrow the TPBs from a library.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 05:30 PM   #171
Stevil2001
Rear Admiral
 
Stevil2001's Avatar
 
Location: 2010
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

Or buy them used.
__________________
"I don't like adventure. I'm a stay-at-home-and-read kind of guy."
Science's Less Accurate Grandmother
Stevil2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 06:27 PM   #172
ATimson
Rear Admiral
 
ATimson's Avatar
 
Location: Andrew Timson
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

BillJ wrote: View Post
You continue to ignore the question of what makes a TPB worth the excessive price. Whether a movie is ninety minutes or two and a half hours I'm paying the same $9.75 to get in. MMPB are between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for X price. TPB are slightly larger in size, between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for nearly twice the price.
Still softcover, but with better quality paper (acid-free, so no yellowing), better binding, and (in my experience) a better chance at showing up at the bookstore undamaged (unlike all eighteen local copies of Losing the Peace I've seen).
__________________
Andrew Timson
===============
"Niceness is the greatest human flaw, except for all the others." - Brendan Moody

"...don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
ATimson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 06:54 PM   #173
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

Sci wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post

This is also silly.

Like, I'll pay $75 for a 2-hour concert if it's Dave Matthews Band, because I like them better. But I may only pay $20 for some other band I don't know as well, because I like them less.

You're not paying for the number of words, you're paying for their content.

You may as well complain that Troublesome Minds and Crucible:McCoy were the same price; the latter was something like 4x as long as the former. Do you refuse to purchase Troublesome Minds?
So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?
No, they're saying that they think the demand curve intersects with the supply curve at the point that creates an equilibrium price of $8.99 for MMPBs and $16.00 for TPBs.

ETA:

Also, get the fuck over it.

The demand currently exists for TPBs, even if you don't enjoy them. If enough customers begin to agree with you, the demand curve for TPBs will become sufficiently low as to render it no longer profitable to make them, and Pocket will revert back to publishing novels as MMPBs. Welcome to capitalism, where the market does not always meet the will of the individual customer. If it bothers you that much, just borrow the TPBs from a library.
Wow! Such venom because I chose 'The Time Ships' over a Trek book (which is where this all started).
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 06:55 PM   #174
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

ATimson wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
You continue to ignore the question of what makes a TPB worth the excessive price. Whether a movie is ninety minutes or two and a half hours I'm paying the same $9.75 to get in. MMPB are between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for X price. TPB are slightly larger in size, between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for nearly twice the price.
Still softcover, but with better quality paper (acid-free, so no yellowing), better binding, and (in my experience) a better chance at showing up at the bookstore undamaged (unlike all eighteen local copies of Losing the Peace I've seen).
Good points. Though I've noticed the covers seem to bend a bit more easily with the trades (in my experience).
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 07:28 PM   #175
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

BillJ wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?
No, they're saying that they think the demand curve intersects with the supply curve at the point that creates an equilibrium price of $8.99 for MMPBs and $16.00 for TPBs.

ETA:

Also, get the fuck over it.

The demand currently exists for TPBs, even if you don't enjoy them. If enough customers begin to agree with you, the demand curve for TPBs will become sufficiently low as to render it no longer profitable to make them, and Pocket will revert back to publishing novels as MMPBs. Welcome to capitalism, where the market does not always meet the will of the individual customer. If it bothers you that much, just borrow the TPBs from a library.
Wow! Such venom because I chose 'The Time Ships' over a Trek book (which is where this all started).
"Lol look guys someone made a big deal over something I made a big deal out of lulz1111"

I get irritated over someone whining about the price of a book they don't need. We're not talking about health care or some essential service, or even the price of a textbook you need for college. We're talking about the price of a Star Trek book.

If you can't afford a $16 book, or think it's too high of a price, then buy it used or borrow it from a library. Don't spend your time whining about the fact that the market is serving a demand curve for a minor luxury that you're not a part of, and don't run around putting words in the publisher's mouth ("So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?").

A market exists for a product you're not willing to buy. If you really want to understand why that product is priced as it is, take a microeconomics course. Otherwise, don't whine about it.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 07:46 PM   #176
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

Sci wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

No, they're saying that they think the demand curve intersects with the supply curve at the point that creates an equilibrium price of $8.99 for MMPBs and $16.00 for TPBs.

ETA:

Also, get the fuck over it.

The demand currently exists for TPBs, even if you don't enjoy them. If enough customers begin to agree with you, the demand curve for TPBs will become sufficiently low as to render it no longer profitable to make them, and Pocket will revert back to publishing novels as MMPBs. Welcome to capitalism, where the market does not always meet the will of the individual customer. If it bothers you that much, just borrow the TPBs from a library.
Wow! Such venom because I chose 'The Time Ships' over a Trek book (which is where this all started).
"Lol look guys someone made a big deal over something I made a big deal out of lulz1111"

I get irritated over someone whining about the price of a book they don't need. We're not talking about health care or some essential service, or even the price of a textbook you need for college. We're talking about the price of a Star Trek book.

If you can't afford a $16 book, or think it's too high of a price, then buy it used or borrow it from a library. Don't spend your time whining about the fact that the market is serving a demand curve for a minor luxury that you're not a part of, and don't run around putting words in the publisher's mouth ("So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?").

A market exists for a product you're not willing to buy. If you really want to understand why that product is priced as it is, take a microeconomics course. Otherwise, don't whine about it.
This is a discussion board? Am I right on that? A place where we discuss Trek books? I would think the price of Trek books would fit right in on a discussion board that discusses Trek books. Am I somehow wrong?

I left it at "I didn't buy it", until another poster decided to bust my chops over it.

Speaking of economics, look up "diminishing returns" and then maybe you'll understand what my beef actually is.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 07:47 PM   #177
Allyn Gibson
Vice Admiral
 
Allyn Gibson's Avatar
 
Location: South Pennsyltucky
View Allyn Gibson's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Allyn Gibson Send a message via Yahoo to Allyn Gibson
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

ATimson wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
You continue to ignore the question of what makes a TPB worth the excessive price. Whether a movie is ninety minutes or two and a half hours I'm paying the same $9.75 to get in. MMPB are between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for X price. TPB are slightly larger in size, between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for nearly twice the price.
Still softcover, but with better quality paper (acid-free, so no yellowing), better binding, and (in my experience) a better chance at showing up at the bookstore undamaged (unlike all eighteen local copies of Losing the Peace I've seen).
I don't know. I was disappointed in the quality of Pocket's Night of the Dragon. The paper quality was low, and the cover felt exceedingly cheap. I would hope that that was an outlier, and that if Pocket did go with trades for future Trek books, they would be more like Treason or the Mirror/Myriad anthos (which are all sturdy and well-made) than like Night of the Dragon.

EDIT: Night of the Dragon, by the way, is a World of WarCraft novel. Just wanted to clarify.
Allyn Gibson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 07:52 PM   #178
David cgc
Vice Admiral
 
David cgc's Avatar
 
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

Cap'n Crunch wrote: View Post
The cover for Unworthy is the same image from this month of the 2009 Ships of the Line Calendar. So it's not an original image, but in my opinion it does look better on the book than in the calendar.
You know, if they're going to keep doing this with the Voyager novels, I'd recommend the December 2007 image. You could crop the other ships easily enough and just have a cool shot of Voyager hovering over a sun.
__________________
“I come here to have fun and fuck around merrily. I expect to showered by all kind of random crap.”
iguana_tonante
David cgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 08:00 PM   #179
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

BillJ wrote: View Post
This is a discussion board? Am I right on that?
I never said you couldn't say whatever you wanted, but don't be surprised if whining irritates other posters and they let you know it.

Speaking of economics, look up "diminishing returns" and then maybe you'll understand what my beef actually is.
I understand full well what your beef is, and there's no reason to think that TPBs -- which are more profitable than MMPBs according to people who actually work in the industry -- somehow represent a diminishing return just because there are some people who are not willing to buy a TPB.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 08:08 PM   #180
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: 2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

Sci wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
This is a discussion board? Am I right on that?
I never said you couldn't say whatever you wanted, but don't be surprised if whining irritates other posters and they let you know it.

Speaking of economics, look up "diminishing returns" and then maybe you'll understand what my beef actually is.
I understand full well what your beef is, and there's no reason to think that TPBs -- which are more profitable than MMPBs according to people who actually work in the industry -- somehow represent a diminishing return just because there are some people who are not willing to buy a TPB.
Wow. I never knew speaking your mind on a message board equated to whining. Or is it only whining when it doesn't match up to the company line? I've noticed a couple of posters who'll come running to 'save the day' whenever someone questions a production or creative decision made by Pocket.

And "diminishing returns" works both ways. For the TPB's, the value versus costs just doesn't match up anymore for me. For me a 110,000 (roughly) word novel just isn't worth $16.00. If it was a six-hundred page, two hundred thousand word epic my feelings would probably be different.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
book covers, ent, fall lineup

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.