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Old June 27 2009, 02:57 AM   #31
Marc
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

Have to admit I'm another who keeps going back to Windows. I have little love for Microsoft and some of it's products but I still go back to them.

I think part of is my career has pretty much revolved around support of Microsoft Products so I tend to use them more to keep my hand in.
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Old July 1 2009, 05:59 AM   #32
ZeNd
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

I qualify myself an expert on this issue since I have been using both linux and windows since the win3.1 days (I forget with kernel version was around back then). Most of everything that needed to be said has already been said. A couple of points that haven't been hit yet:

1. Despite all the gains that the linux kernal and distros have made, hardware support is still ASS. Most hardware developers don't have linux drivers or their linux drivers suck ass. Driver installations also suck ass, some are even still command line based.

2. The dependancy hell problem is still there in linux. Trying to install open source software thats not already prepackaged (rpm, deb, etc) will INSTANTLY turn people off as soon as they run into a dependancy issue. This is never an issue for windows since everything is always delivered in precompiled binaries.

3. The default GUIs for linux (kde/gnome/etc) still suck compared to windows out of the box. Default Aero looks a hell of a lot better than default KDE4 and default Gnome. With lots of customization KDE/gnome can potentially look better but most people will never bother.

4. On that note. The GTK/QT/Motiff widget issue makes open source apps look non-uniform. Windows only has one widget toolkit so everything looks the same more or less.

5. Fonts look better out of the box with windows. It also comes with better quality fonts.

6. The linux/opensource community is FULL of elitist asshats.

Linux will ---NEVER--- even come close to the market share windows/osx enjoys. EVER.
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Old July 1 2009, 07:02 AM   #33
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

having not read the responses.

Linux is decent. I had it on my netbook and i tried it on my desktop but it is just never quite good enough.

I had the latest Ubuntu 9 installed but it was still a royal fucking pain to get programs installed. I installed Windows 7 RC1 on my netbook and it runs like a fucking dream. Much faster that Ubuntu with driver support and usability that Linux could only dream of.

Linux is pretty decent, but its not even close to being ready for prime time.
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Old July 1 2009, 05:02 PM   #34
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

Regardless of whether GNU/Linux is ever dumbed down to the point that uneducated/stupid users can understand it, it won't be dying any time soon. It's doing just fine without desktop users, seeing as it runs a large part of the internet and stuff.
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Old July 1 2009, 05:28 PM   #35
USS KG5
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

ZeNd wrote: View Post
I qualify myself an expert on this issue since I have been using both linux and windows since the win3.1 days (I forget with kernel version was around back then). Most of everything that needed to be said has already been said. A couple of points that haven't been hit yet:

1. Despite all the gains that the linux kernal and distros have made, hardware support is still ASS. Most hardware developers don't have linux drivers or their linux drivers suck ass. Driver installations also suck ass, some are even still command line based.

2. The dependancy hell problem is still there in linux. Trying to install open source software thats not already prepackaged (rpm, deb, etc) will INSTANTLY turn people off as soon as they run into a dependancy issue. This is never an issue for windows since everything is always delivered in precompiled binaries.

3. The default GUIs for linux (kde/gnome/etc) still suck compared to windows out of the box. Default Aero looks a hell of a lot better than default KDE4 and default Gnome. With lots of customization KDE/gnome can potentially look better but most people will never bother.

4. On that note. The GTK/QT/Motiff widget issue makes open source apps look non-uniform. Windows only has one widget toolkit so everything looks the same more or less.

5. Fonts look better out of the box with windows. It also comes with better quality fonts.

6. The linux/opensource community is FULL of elitist asshats.
EXCELLENT post - I agree with every point here and would only like to clarify....

Linux will ---NEVER--- even come close to the market share windows/osx enjoys. EVER.
As Linux exists now, absolutely, as it is most likely to develop in future, absolutely.

BUT - a new mainstream OS based on Linux which is developed by a broad alliance of the current distributors to a single standard, with the elitists sidelined in favour of people who normally favour windows, and an emphasis on fixing the problems you state above, MIGHT do very well.
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Old July 1 2009, 07:14 PM   #36
Marc
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
ZeNd wrote: View Post
I qualify myself an expert on this issue since I have been using both linux and windows since the win3.1 days (I forget with kernel version was around back then). Most of everything that needed to be said has already been said. A couple of points that haven't been hit yet:

1. Despite all the gains that the linux kernal and distros have made, hardware support is still ASS. Most hardware developers don't have linux drivers or their linux drivers suck ass. Driver installations also suck ass, some are even still command line based.

2. The dependancy hell problem is still there in linux. Trying to install open source software thats not already prepackaged (rpm, deb, etc) will INSTANTLY turn people off as soon as they run into a dependancy issue. This is never an issue for windows since everything is always delivered in precompiled binaries.

3. The default GUIs for linux (kde/gnome/etc) still suck compared to windows out of the box. Default Aero looks a hell of a lot better than default KDE4 and default Gnome. With lots of customization KDE/gnome can potentially look better but most people will never bother.

4. On that note. The GTK/QT/Motiff widget issue makes open source apps look non-uniform. Windows only has one widget toolkit so everything looks the same more or less.

5. Fonts look better out of the box with windows. It also comes with better quality fonts.

6. The linux/opensource community is FULL of elitist asshats.
EXCELLENT post - I agree with every point here and would only like to clarify....

Linux will ---NEVER--- even come close to the market share windows/osx enjoys. EVER.
As Linux exists now, absolutely, as it is most likely to develop in future, absolutely.

BUT - a new mainstream OS based on Linux which is developed by a broad alliance of the current distributors to a single standard, with the elitists sidelined in favour of people who normally favour windows, and an emphasis on fixing the problems you state above, MIGHT do very well.
I think that people sometimes forget the history of operating systems. Prior to 1981 and the advent of MS-DOS there was still no wide spead operating system uniforimity. Sure you had CP/M but that was for systems that just ran on Z80s based systems of which there were a few but there will still many proprietary systems.

Along comes Microsoft in 1981 with MS-DOS and sells it to IBM and the world changed but here's the thing. It wasn't actually Microsoft who caused the change - it was IBM. IBM lead and the world followed. Even in those days how ever while many computers run MS-DOS and Microsoft Programs that wasn't actually the main selling point. You sold on compatiblity (hence the term dominant for some time - IBM compatible). There were many systems out there that were better than the IBMs yet failed becasue they weren't IBM compatible.

Then IBM shot themselves in the foot with MCA and their power in the market began to accelerated it's decline (which basically began when the first Compaq shipped). Courtesy of it's the foothold it gained through the IBM deal, Microsoft began to the one where compatiblity was the issue and I guess from the release of Windows 95, IBM compatibliity was history, Windows compatability was in.

Had Linux been around in those early days maybe things would of been different but I don't think it's going to get anywhere near as big as Windows or Apple OS X on the desktop. While there are many benefits to it's open source model it really lacks a single big company behind that can throw the weight around and really get it moving. Sure there's Redhat, IBM and there's Novell but I don't think they really have desktop market in mind. They see the server market as the point where they can really take on Microsoft.

Doesn't mean that a Linux can't compete on the desktop. The example is given of how it can be painful without pre-build binaries & packages to mean any depedancy requirements but it some ways you still get that trying to install some Windows programs. Though I admit that it's slightly less painful with Windows but a decent package manager removes the pain.
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Old July 1 2009, 07:15 PM   #37
ZeNd
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
EXCELLENT post - I agree with every point here and would only like to clarify....
Thanks

BUT - a new mainstream OS based on Linux which is developed by a broad alliance of the current distributors to a single standard, with the elitists sidelined in favour of people who normally favour windows, and an emphasis on fixing the problems you state above, MIGHT do very well.
I could but wrong but in my opinion not going to happen. You would need a lot of buy in from both hardware and software developers for Linux to really thrive in the mainstream desktop community.

There are some very good open source projects and open source tools but I'd say probably 80%+ are for experts and server applications. Apache is a good example. Linux is excellent for servers and the engineers using cad tools and it has a fairly good market share in that market. But for the mainstream desktop user? It's ass.
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Old July 1 2009, 08:35 PM   #38
Plecostomus
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

ZeNd wrote: View Post
But for the mainstream desktop user? It's ass.

I put Ubuntu on a 667mhz 512mb system and gave it to a friend. His first comment was how fast it ran compared to his Vista laptop. Second thing he commented on was how much stuff he could get legally, for free. Things like Office and GIMP. Recently he commented to me about how he'd been doing his online forum based RPG and he was able to find a web-page editor for free.

There is a market for Linux amung the desktop users. It's small but it's there.

Personally I like to use smaller versions of Linux and revamp old hardware and give it to disadvantaged folks. They aren't going to complain because it's not as "flashy" or "Chique" as other options, they are just greatful to have the chance to own a computer and do computer stuff.
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Old July 1 2009, 10:29 PM   #39
ZeNd
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

Plecostomus wrote: View Post
ZeNd wrote: View Post
But for the mainstream desktop user? It's ass.

I put Ubuntu on a 667mhz 512mb system and gave it to a friend. His first comment was how fast it ran compared to his Vista laptop. Second thing he commented on was how much stuff he could get legally, for free. Things like Office and GIMP. Recently he commented to me about how he'd been doing his online forum based RPG and he was able to find a web-page editor for free.

There is a market for Linux amung the desktop users. It's small but it's there.

Personally I like to use smaller versions of Linux and revamp old hardware and give it to disadvantaged folks. They aren't going to complain because it's not as "flashy" or "Chique" as other options, they are just greatful to have the chance to own a computer and do computer stuff.
That's a awesome thing for you too do and it's good to know there are people like you out there helping the disadvantaged. Still though, the market for that is very small. Keep up the good work though.
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Old July 1 2009, 10:39 PM   #40
noknowes
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
Hi All,

I was reading another, rightly clanged, thread in this forum where one user was attempting to pirate Windows software for use against the license terms.

This got me thinking - why would anyone do that? While the moral debate over piracy (which I think is wrong personally) is not for this ofrum, we certainly are free to point out that good open source alternatives exist for almost all software now.

I know a lot of people here will reply with "but I need to rip off software for my work" well newsflash, if you are getting paid, so should the makers of the software be, and "I'm a poor student" does not really wash either, student editions of software cost very little.

BUT - crucially - ripping off Windows? Linux has grown and grown to the point that you can now, totally free of payment, install an OS which lets you do everything a Windows PC can (with the exception of playing certain games) for free, and some here will doubtless argue it does it better.

While the business case for "free" in the long run is extremely shaky, while it is here we should all take advantage, some excellent perfectly free programs on my PC include (dual boot with a licensed XP): -

Ubuntu Linux
OpenOffice.org
VLC Media Player
Paint.net
GIMP
AVG Free
Lavasoft Ad-Aware
Mozilla Firefox

ALL LEGAL AND FREE! So I ask you all for your opinion, surely it is better to be legal and support this excellent community, than to spend time and effort stealing software from the big corporations.

Fundamentally, if for some reason you feel an OS should be free, then Linux was built for you!

LINUX IS UNRELIABLE,

it is command line based with weird symbols.

i one tested it using a live cd.it was very clunky and slow.the interface had LARGE fonts which i could not reduce.
i could not install a AOL modem.so it was useless.

later it would not connect to internet using broadband either.

no intuitive messages.

pretty useless.

I think it for people who love command line and wasting all their time on the operating system instead of doing productive work in their basement.

it is really for idle hobbyists.

what i have done is used a operating system that is a merger of win98/00.

this works amazingly.
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Old July 1 2009, 11:11 PM   #41
Marc
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

noknowes wrote: View Post
USS KG5 wrote: View Post
Hi All,

I was reading another, rightly clanged, thread in this forum where one user was attempting to pirate Windows software for use against the license terms.

This got me thinking - why would anyone do that? While the moral debate over piracy (which I think is wrong personally) is not for this ofrum, we certainly are free to point out that good open source alternatives exist for almost all software now.

I know a lot of people here will reply with "but I need to rip off software for my work" well newsflash, if you are getting paid, so should the makers of the software be, and "I'm a poor student" does not really wash either, student editions of software cost very little.

BUT - crucially - ripping off Windows? Linux has grown and grown to the point that you can now, totally free of payment, install an OS which lets you do everything a Windows PC can (with the exception of playing certain games) for free, and some here will doubtless argue it does it better.

While the business case for "free" in the long run is extremely shaky, while it is here we should all take advantage, some excellent perfectly free programs on my PC include (dual boot with a licensed XP): -

Ubuntu Linux
OpenOffice.org
VLC Media Player
Paint.net
GIMP
AVG Free
Lavasoft Ad-Aware
Mozilla Firefox

ALL LEGAL AND FREE! So I ask you all for your opinion, surely it is better to be legal and support this excellent community, than to spend time and effort stealing software from the big corporations.

Fundamentally, if for some reason you feel an OS should be free, then Linux was built for you!

LINUX IS UNRELIABLE,

it is command line based with weird symbols.

i one tested it using a live cd.it was very clunky and slow.the interface had LARGE fonts which i could not reduce.
i could not install a AOL modem.so it was useless.

later it would not connect to internet using broadband either.

no intuitive messages.

pretty useless.

I think it for people who love command line and wasting all their time on the operating system instead of doing productive work in their basement.

it is really for idle hobbyists.

what i have done is used a operating system that is a merger of win98/00.

this works amazingly.
Once again you've demonstrated your ignorance. Plesae stop posting

Instead go and an read about everything that runs on Linux from the smalled netbook to the world's faster supercomputer.

Read up on much of the net run on Linux.

Read up on VOIP telephone systems.

Read up on big iron servers running.

Hell it wouldn't suprise me if the Trekbbs was running on a Linux server.

And there is no way in hell you could be running a combination of Windows 2000 and Windows 98. Their core design was totally different. Win2K was derived from Windows NT which had alwasy been pure 32bit. Windows 98 evolved from the 16bit line (Windows 3.x) and while predominately a 32bit operating system still had a large amount of 16bit code.

Because of it's NT origins Windows 2000 had a level of security that 98 could only dream about.
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Old July 2 2009, 12:32 AM   #42
noknowes
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

Marc wrote: View Post
noknowes wrote: View Post
USS KG5 wrote: View Post
Hi All,

I was reading another, rightly clanged, thread in this forum where one user was attempting to pirate Windows software for use against the license terms.

This got me thinking - why would anyone do that? While the moral debate over piracy (which I think is wrong personally) is not for this ofrum, we certainly are free to point out that good open source alternatives exist for almost all software now.

I know a lot of people here will reply with "but I need to rip off software for my work" well newsflash, if you are getting paid, so should the makers of the software be, and "I'm a poor student" does not really wash either, student editions of software cost very little.

BUT - crucially - ripping off Windows? Linux has grown and grown to the point that you can now, totally free of payment, install an OS which lets you do everything a Windows PC can (with the exception of playing certain games) for free, and some here will doubtless argue it does it better.

While the business case for "free" in the long run is extremely shaky, while it is here we should all take advantage, some excellent perfectly free programs on my PC include (dual boot with a licensed XP): -

Ubuntu Linux
OpenOffice.org
VLC Media Player
Paint.net
GIMP
AVG Free
Lavasoft Ad-Aware
Mozilla Firefox

ALL LEGAL AND FREE! So I ask you all for your opinion, surely it is better to be legal and support this excellent community, than to spend time and effort stealing software from the big corporations.

Fundamentally, if for some reason you feel an OS should be free, then Linux was built for you!

LINUX IS UNRELIABLE,

it is command line based with weird symbols.

i one tested it using a live cd.it was very clunky and slow.the interface had LARGE fonts which i could not reduce.
i could not install a AOL modem.so it was useless.

later it would not connect to internet using broadband either.

no intuitive messages.

pretty useless.

I think it for people who love command line and wasting all their time on the operating system instead of doing productive work in their basement.

it is really for idle hobbyists.

what i have done is used a operating system that is a merger of win98/00.

this works amazingly.
Once again you've demonstrated your ignorance. Plesae stop posting

Instead go and an read about everything that runs on Linux from the smalled netbook to the world's faster supercomputer.

Read up on much of the net run on Linux.

Read up on VOIP telephone systems.

Read up on big iron servers running.

Hell it wouldn't suprise me if the Trekbbs was running on a Linux server.

And there is no way in hell you could be running a combination of Windows 2000 and Windows 98. Their core design was totally different. Win2K was derived from Windows NT which had alwasy been pure 32bit. Windows 98 evolved from the 16bit line (Windows 3.x) and while predominately a 32bit operating system still had a large amount of 16bit code.

Because of it's NT origins Windows 2000 had a level of security that 98 could only dream about.

I AM NOT DISPUTING LINUX BASED SERVERS,ETC AS YOU SAY.

I am talking about desktops and real people like everyday joe who need to work and get something accomplished without mastering an infinite number of linux distros.

Bill Gates invented windows so AVERAGE JOE people could do work with it.

i have never seen an office with linux based desk tops in it.

my os was designed by me installing win 98 then installing win2000 on top of it.

i found most of my 1232 win98 programs still worked on it!
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Old July 2 2009, 12:37 AM   #43
Smiley
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

^
You're running Windows 2000, then. When you upgraded, Window 98 was essentially overwritten. The programs still work because of Microsoft's standardization and backward-compatibility. Most programs work on multiple versions of Windows, typically at least three of them.

I agree that Linux is currently not as user-friendly as Windows, but it has usefulness to some user groups now, and it has potential to be better in the future.
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Old July 2 2009, 01:03 AM   #44
Marc
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

noknowes wrote: View Post
Marc wrote: View Post
noknowes wrote: View Post


LINUX IS UNRELIABLE,

it is command line based with weird symbols.

i one tested it using a live cd.it was very clunky and slow.the interface had LARGE fonts which i could not reduce.
i could not install a AOL modem.so it was useless.

later it would not connect to internet using broadband either.

no intuitive messages.

pretty useless.

I think it for people who love command line and wasting all their time on the operating system instead of doing productive work in their basement.

it is really for idle hobbyists.

what i have done is used a operating system that is a merger of win98/00.

this works amazingly.
Once again you've demonstrated your ignorance. Plesae stop posting

Instead go and an read about everything that runs on Linux from the smalled netbook to the world's faster supercomputer.

Read up on much of the net run on Linux.

Read up on VOIP telephone systems.

Read up on big iron servers running.

Hell it wouldn't suprise me if the Trekbbs was running on a Linux server.

And there is no way in hell you could be running a combination of Windows 2000 and Windows 98. Their core design was totally different. Win2K was derived from Windows NT which had alwasy been pure 32bit. Windows 98 evolved from the 16bit line (Windows 3.x) and while predominately a 32bit operating system still had a large amount of 16bit code.

Because of it's NT origins Windows 2000 had a level of security that 98 could only dream about.

I AM NOT DISPUTING LINUX BASED SERVERS,ETC AS YOU SAY.

I am talking about desktops and real people like everyday joe who need to work and get something accomplished without mastering an infinite number of linux distros.

Bill Gates invented windows so AVERAGE JOE people could do work with it.

i have never seen an office with linux based desk tops in it.

my os was designed by me installing win 98 then installing win2000 on top of it.

i found most of my 1232 win98 programs still worked on it!
No Bill Gates did not invent Windows.

The original Windows concept was created by Xerox at their Palo Alto Research Centre (Xerox PARC) around 1972. Steve Jobs was exposed to the idea of a GUI during a tour in the 1970s.

In 1982/3 Apple released the Lisa - the first GUI based system available for commerical sale.

The LISA flopped due to Job's mindset but it gave Birth to the Apple MacIntosh which came out in 1984.

At the time of LISA Microsoft had no Windows system. Version 1 of windows was developed and completed in 1985 but severly limited. Version 2 was out in 1987. It wasn't until the 80386 systems beceme prevelent in the late 1980s/early 90s that we saw Windows begin to take off both with the release of more Windows based apps and the advent of Windows 3.0 in 1990

Microsoft then introduced network in what became Windows for Workgroups.

You line about having never seen and office desktop with Linux on reeks of ignorance. Perhaps I shold say I've never seen you there for you do not exist.

A trust me you have no fucking idea how to design an operating system.

Operating systems to do not, I repeat do not merge - they replace.

Having worked in IT since 1989 I've done my fair share of upgrades on both Desktops and Servers so unlike you, I think I know what I'm talking about.
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Old July 2 2009, 01:45 AM   #45
DiSiLLUSiON
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Re: Instead of Windows Piracy - Use Linux!

^^ You are absolutely right. However, it does feel like you're talking to a door -- I doubt noknowes will pick up any information.
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