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Old June 28 2009, 01:20 PM   #91
Christopher
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

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But then what about with Romulan and Klingon ships, during that period when the ship is cloaking, and the shields have dropped, but the cloak hasn't quite kicked in completely, and it is still possible to target them? I guess it all comes down to calculated risk, and whether or not the MVAM was deemed to outweigh the risks.
I think that's a much shorter period of vulnerability, and with fewer potentially problematical variables.

Of course, intrinsically, the very idea of a cloaking device for a spaceship is even more ludicrous than a multipart ship could ever be. The latter is just overcomplicated; the former is a thermodynamic impossibility. Ships produce heat, and in space there's no way to dissipate that heat except by radiating it outward, which produces a detectable signature. A ship that could cloak all its energy would cook its own crew. If I could expunge cloaking devices from the Trekverse, I would.



It seems like you are assuming that each piece is designed to run completely separate of each other for extended periods.
Yes, but that's exactly my point: That while a ship designed to function in both a unified and separated mode may be basically functional, the three partial ships won't be as functional or capable as three complete ships. If you need three ships, the simpler engineering solution (and the first rule of engineering is "Keep it simple, stupid") is to build three ships, rather than giving into the allure of flashy gimmicks and inventing some cutesy way to make one ship that splits into three pieces.

MVAM seems to me to be no more than a glorified saucer separation. 3 pieces instead of two, and each has a warp drive instead of only one of them having it. The saucer of the Enterprise-D didn't have 3 sickbays. It had only one bridge per section as well, it didn't need each section to have it's own dedicated backup. And then what happens if the Enterprise-D loses one of it's section while separated? It doesn't seem all that different to me.
The key difference is that in a saucer separation, the two parts aren't meant to function in tandem in a combat situation. The saucer is meant to be left behind somewhere safe while the battle hull -- only one ship -- goes into combat. The saucer isn't meant to be a functional starship on its own.

Even so, it's not the design I would've gone with. I feel that if they wanted to have a largely civilian research vessel with independent combat capability, it would've been simpler just to send two ships out together. Two specialized ships are going to be more effective at their specialties than one general-purpose ship that can split into two semi-specialized halves. Might've been more dramatically interesting, too -- imagine a TNG with science-ship captain Picard and defense-ship captain Riker clashing over their different philosophies and approaches to a given crisis.
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Old June 28 2009, 01:44 PM   #92
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
If I could expunge cloaking devices from the Trekverse, I would.
I've not got much to say on the values of MVAM, but when I read this Christopher, my only thought was "good thing you can't then"
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Old June 29 2009, 05:18 PM   #93
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
Two specialized ships are going to be more effective at their specialties than one general-purpose ship that can split into two semi-specialized halves.
Very true, that's something a few of us had talked about in one of the Trek Tech threads. We had a hard time explaining to someone that one ship cannot be the best at everything, and specialized ships will always be better at what they are made for than any random all-purpose ship...

And in the case of the Prometheus... From what we saw, we don't really know for sure if it was a battle specialized ship or an all-purpose one... However, since it has all the extra hull and machinery along the separation planes, and it only has 16 decks, I'd hazard a guess that it was probably designed FOR the MVAM.
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Old June 29 2009, 06:46 PM   #94
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

In the interests of fairness, I've just thought of one possible reason (other than flashiness for its own sake) why Starfleet designers might've thought a ship like the Prometheus was a good idea: to surprise the enemy by making them think it's just one ship and then springing three ships on them. But the obvious flaw in that strategy is that it only works once (unless you always manage to capture or destroy the enemy before they can send out a signal).
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Old June 29 2009, 08:40 PM   #95
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
In the interests of fairness, I've just thought of one possible reason (other than flashiness for its own sake) why Starfleet designers might've thought a ship like the Prometheus was a good idea: to surprise the enemy by making them think it's just one ship and then springing three ships on them. But the obvious flaw in that strategy is that it only works once (unless you always manage to capture or destroy the enemy before they can send out a signal).
Hmm... perhaps somewhat related to that, if there's a way to mask Fleet ship signals so that you can't tell what you're up against, or make the Prommie look like something else (say an Intrepid or Akira) until forces have been committed, it might have a similar surprise effect tactically. So the Jem'Hadar, for example, detect three cruiser-sized Federation starships and commit a certain numbers of ships to destroy or defend them, only to have those three turn into nine once the engagement begins? Whereas if you had nine slightly smaller (Sabre or Defiant-class) ships on sensors from the outset, the Jem'Hadar/Romulans/Breen/etc. would be more likely to scramble an appropriately powerful force in response.
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Old June 29 2009, 08:56 PM   #96
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

^^Like I said, it only works once. If the enemy knows that what looks like a single Federation ship might end up splitting into three, they're going to be prepared for that possibility. They're not going to be so stupid as to assume that what they see isn't an illusion, not after they've been fooled before.
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Old June 30 2009, 12:14 AM   #97
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
Of course, intrinsically, the very idea of a cloaking device for a spaceship is even more ludicrous than a multipart ship could ever be. The latter is just overcomplicated; the former is a thermodynamic impossibility. Ships produce heat, and in space there's no way to dissipate that heat except by radiating it outward, which produces a detectable signature. A ship that could cloak all its energy would cook its own crew.
Obviously cloaking devices shunt all that heat energy off into subspace!
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Old June 30 2009, 11:52 PM   #98
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
^^Like I said, it only works once. If the enemy knows that what looks like a single Federation ship might end up splitting into three, they're going to be prepared for that possibility. They're not going to be so stupid as to assume that what they see isn't an illusion, not after they've been fooled before.
Ehh... yeah, you're probably right. In that case, the threat of splitting technology could be used in a more strategic way to draw enemy forces away from the front lines by staging a cavalry raid... meh, but then those three normal ships would be toast and it's too complicated anyway. Ah well.
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Old July 1 2009, 03:52 AM   #99
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

yeah, it really doesn't do anything that 2 defiant-class wouldn't do much better, but the MVAM thing just introduces too many problems for little to no gain...
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Old July 11 2009, 10:29 PM   #100
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

The USS Galen is described as an 'Emergency Medical Ship', and the Doctor from Voyager is assigned as the Chief Medical Officer.
Since this is a Medical ship, does anyone else reckon that the Doctor would also be the Captain?
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Old July 11 2009, 11:57 PM   #101
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

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The USS Galen is described as an 'Emergency Medical Ship', and the Doctor from Voyager is assigned as the Chief Medical Officer.
Since this is a Medical ship, does anyone else reckon that the Doctor would also be the Captain?
I thought that was implied in Full Circle. Don't have my copy close at hand, but didn't one of the admirals say someting about looking forward to the Doctor's command reports from the Delta Quadrant?
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Old July 12 2009, 12:22 AM   #102
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Chris McCarver wrote: View Post
CaptainGren wrote: View Post
The USS Galen is described as an 'Emergency Medical Ship', and the Doctor from Voyager is assigned as the Chief Medical Officer.
Since this is a Medical ship, does anyone else reckon that the Doctor would also be the Captain?
I thought that was implied in Full Circle. Don't have my copy close at hand, but didn't one of the admirals say someting about looking forward to the Doctor's command reports from the Delta Quadrant?

I don't remember that ? Do you have a page number? It would great if the Doctor got his chance to exercise the ECH .
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Old July 12 2009, 12:26 AM   #103
Chris McCarver
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Paris wrote: View Post
Chris McCarver wrote: View Post
CaptainGren wrote: View Post
The USS Galen is described as an 'Emergency Medical Ship', and the Doctor from Voyager is assigned as the Chief Medical Officer.
Since this is a Medical ship, does anyone else reckon that the Doctor would also be the Captain?
I thought that was implied in Full Circle. Don't have my copy close at hand, but didn't one of the admirals say someting about looking forward to the Doctor's command reports from the Delta Quadrant?

I don't remember that ? Do you have a page number? It would great if the Doctor got his chance to exercise the ECH .
I'll hunt it up once I return home (logging on from a relative's house at the moment).
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Old July 12 2009, 04:48 AM   #104
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

I don't know for sure if he is in command, but I do remember a reference to the ECH.
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Old July 12 2009, 05:06 AM   #105
Chris McCarver
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Paris wrote: View Post
Chris McCarver wrote: View Post
CaptainGren wrote: View Post
The USS Galen is described as an 'Emergency Medical Ship', and the Doctor from Voyager is assigned as the Chief Medical Officer.
Since this is a Medical ship, does anyone else reckon that the Doctor would also be the Captain?
I thought that was implied in Full Circle. Don't have my copy close at hand, but didn't one of the admirals say someting about looking forward to the Doctor's command reports from the Delta Quadrant?

I don't remember that ? Do you have a page number? It would great if the Doctor got his chance to exercise the ECH .
Page 461. Although, on second readthrough, I see I've misinterpreted. Capt. Eden was referring to his reports as the Galen's CMO, and one Commander Clarissa Glenn is later named as Galen's CO on pp. 510-511.
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