RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,795
Posts: 5,325,637
Members: 24,548
Currently online: 600
Newest member: wrestlefreak36

TrekToday headlines

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

New Trek Home Fashions
By: T'Bonz on Jul 4

Star Trek Pop-Ups Book Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3

Cho: More On Selfie
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 21 2009, 05:48 PM   #61
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Paris wrote: View Post
Why not? What do you find "silly" and "gimmicky" about the Prometheus? Is it the fact that it can split into three ships that act together in co-ordinated attacks?
Yes. What's the point? If you need three ships, then build three ships. If you need them to be in one package, then have one large carrier ship that can disgorge the other two as needed. Something that's designed to switch between being a single ship and a small fleet is not going to be especially good at being either one. There's have to be too many structural and design compromises. Either the redundancy of features for the three ships would make the single-ship configuration unwieldy and wasteful, or the separate ships would be incomplete and weak.

Besides, what happens if one of the three divided shiplets gets crippled or destroyed? That would make it impossible to put the whole ship back together as a functional unit. That strikes me as a pretty serious Achilles heel -- lose 1/3 of your force and you basically lose the whole thing.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 05:55 PM   #62
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
Besides, what happens if one of the three divided shiplets gets crippled or destroyed? That would make it impossible to put the whole ship back together as a functional unit.
We don't know that for sure.
__________________
In labor news: Longshoremen walked off the piers today. Rescue operations are continuing.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 06:34 PM   #63
Paris
Fleet Captain
 
Paris's Avatar
 
Location: In the future's past
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
Why not? What do you find "silly" and "gimmicky" about the Prometheus? Is it the fact that it can split into three ships that act together in co-ordinated attacks?
Yes. What's the point? If you need three ships, then build three ships. If you need them to be in one package, then have one large carrier ship that can disgorge the other two as needed. Something that's designed to switch between being a single ship and a small fleet is not going to be especially good at being either one. There's have to be too many structural and design compromises. Either the redundancy of features for the three ships would make the single-ship configuration unwieldy and wasteful, or the separate ships would be incomplete and weak.

Besides, what happens if one of the three divided shiplets gets crippled or destroyed? That would make it impossible to put the whole ship back together as a functional unit. That strikes me as a pretty serious Achilles heel -- lose 1/3 of your force and you basically lose the whole thing.
Much like the unknown medical advances of the 24th century, the engineering advances must also be staggering, and very much unknown to us. We have no idea if any structural or design compromisies were even made (we just assume), just as we don't know whether or not the ship can still function when one of it's three ship components is destroyed or incapacitated. It's never been stated on screen. I think Starfleet would have assumed that 1/3 or even 2/3 of the ship could be incapacitated, as it is a multi-vector attack ship, and would have planned accordingly. Don't you? You pointed out when I was making assumptions the other day...don't you go and do the same thing now
__________________
"I don't use plot to serve continuity porn, I use continuity porn to serve plot." - Christopher L. Bennett July 2, 2013
Paris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 07:24 PM   #64
captcalhoun
Admiral
 
Location: everywhere
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

the Prometheus was just a macguffin. it wasn't supposed to make sense...
captcalhoun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 07:33 PM   #65
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: I am here. You are here, too. Yes.
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
the Prometheus was just a macguffin. it wasn't supposed to make sense...
Yes, I notice "Deep Space Nine" never followed up on it. We never saw the Prometheus deployed during the later stages of the Dominion War, when you'd think the Federation would be eager to get every functioining warship out into battle.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 08:01 PM   #66
Paris
Fleet Captain
 
Paris's Avatar
 
Location: In the future's past
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
the Prometheus was just a macguffin. it wasn't supposed to make sense...
Really ? When did they say that? I always did wonder why we never saw it in DS9 when it would have been perfect for the dominion War...
__________________
"I don't use plot to serve continuity porn, I use continuity porn to serve plot." - Christopher L. Bennett July 2, 2013
Paris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 08:39 PM   #67
LutherSloan
Fleet Captain
 
LutherSloan's Avatar
 
Location: Doing the Federation's dirty work
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

I believe there was a Prometheus in that fleet at the conclusion of 'Endgame' that was waiting in the Sol system for Voyager.

I would think that each section of the ship has its own bridge, although apparently the sections can be automated as well, judging from 'Message in a Bottle'.

I also think that MVAM makes sense if the ship is outnumbered or in a fleet such as Voyager will be shortly. You never know how many ships you might run into in un-or-underexplored territory.
__________________
Deputy Director, Section 31

Expand Medicare for All!!
LutherSloan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 09:39 PM   #68
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

LutherSloan wrote: View Post
I also think that MVAM makes sense if the ship is outnumbered...
I don't. How does splitting one ship up into three ships with only 1/3 the strength of the original help? Say you're in a group of three people confronted by a pack of wolves. Do you know what's going to happen if you split up and run in three directions? You'll get picked off and killed one at a time. Staying together in a group makes you stronger.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 10:34 PM   #69
MichaelS
Fleet Captain
 
MichaelS's Avatar
 
Location: Austria
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

I do believe, though, that the point of the Prometheus class is to attack from three different directions, not to run away. Also, I should think that each section is properly armed and capable of defending itself, so comparing them to people pursued by a pack of wolves seems a bit of a stretch.
__________________
Exploring the Universe
Out now: Star Trek: A Choice of Catastrophes
MichaelS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 10:42 PM   #70
Trent Roman
Rear Admiral
 
Trent Roman's Avatar
 
Location: The Palace of Pernicious Pleasures
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

As I recall, some of the weapon mounts were on areas covered by the other segments when the ship is whole, so seperation allows for more weaponry to be brought to bear (it's a ship that, by itself, can create a crossfire); it also forces the enemy vessel or vessels to divide their attention instead of being able to focus their pursuit and firepower on one point.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
__________________
Obdurants and Amusings - Behind the Shampoo Curtain
Trent Roman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 10:54 PM   #71
Allyn Gibson
Vice Admiral
 
Allyn Gibson's Avatar
 
Location: South Pennsyltucky
View Allyn Gibson's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Allyn Gibson Send a message via Yahoo to Allyn Gibson
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
Besides, what happens if one of the three divided shiplets gets crippled or destroyed?
It would be like Triplicate Girl becoming Duo Damsel...
Allyn Gibson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 10:55 PM   #72
LutherSloan
Fleet Captain
 
LutherSloan's Avatar
 
Location: Doing the Federation's dirty work
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
As I recall, some of the weapon mounts were on areas covered by the other segments when the ship is whole, so seperation allows for more weaponry to be brought to bear (it's a ship that, by itself, can create a crossfire); it also forces the enemy vessel or vessels to divide their attention instead of being able to focus their pursuit and firepower on one point.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Yes, some of the weapons arrays were certainly covered by the hull when the ship is together.
__________________
Deputy Director, Section 31

Expand Medicare for All!!
LutherSloan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2009, 11:48 PM   #73
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

MichaelS wrote: View Post
I do believe, though, that the point of the Prometheus class is to attack from three different directions, not to run away. Also, I should think that each section is properly armed and capable of defending itself, so comparing them to people pursued by a pack of wolves seems a bit of a stretch.
But power doesn't come out of nowhere. Each of those three ships has only 1/3 the power capacity of the first. So it's impossible by simple arithmetic for any one of those ships to be equally as well-protected as the intact ship. It's false to paint it as a choice between one ship or three ships. It's a choice between one strong ship and three weaker ships.

And I still say there would have to be design compromises to make the ships work both as independent ships and part of a greater whole. It's just a basic principle that if you're trying to be two things at once, you won't excel at either of them. If having three ships in one is such a great idea, then do what I said: have one carrier ship that can deploy two other complete ships. That way you have three ships designed to function as independent ships. There's no need for the flashy, toylike gimmickry of one ship that can split into three. That was only done to "look cool" on screen, but I just found it silly and overcomplicated. There are simpler, more straightforward ways of achieving the stated goal, and the more straightforward approach is always better engineering.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2009, 12:02 AM   #74
Allyn Gibson
Vice Admiral
 
Allyn Gibson's Avatar
 
Location: South Pennsyltucky
View Allyn Gibson's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Allyn Gibson Send a message via Yahoo to Allyn Gibson
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

It's false to paint it as a choice between one ship or three ships. It's a choice between one strong ship and three weaker ships.
We've been shown that the Defiant is on par with at least an Excelsior-class ship, and it's gone toe-to-toe with Jem'Hadar ships. So, Starfleet clearly has some faculty with building small, warp-powered gun platforms.

(I tend to think that the Dominion War didn't last long enough to break Starfleet of the tactical paradigm that favored capital ships. A longer war, and larger losses, would have forced a change toward smaller ships, along the lines of the Defiants. It's quicker to build flying torpedo launchers than it is to build large ships. And you don't lose as many crew when you lose a flying torpedo launcher than you do when you lose a capital ship. That's one of the lessons of war; you always refight the last war until you need to learn new lessons. Our tactical lesson for today, however, is finished.)

If Starfleet can build Defiant-class vessels, then they have some experience with building small, but extremely powerful, warp cores that can power phasers and quantum torpedoes. Using the lessons of the Defiant, I don't see why Starfleet can't "chain" three vessels together. Yes, each would carry its own warp core, and each would be largely separate.

But I also see it as being like the Constructicons or the Aerialbots; while the individual parts can function individually and quite well, they can also combine to create something with even more power and punch. I assumed that the three warp drives, chained together, could produce a massive power spike that could be driven through the phasers or quantorps. Or, one vessel's warp drive was sufficient for motive power, leaving two warp drives free to power the weapons systems (since ST:TMP established that phasers were powered through the warp core).

Suffice it to say, if the Defiant is on par with an Excelsior, I would assume that the three component ships of a Prometheus are likewise there, at the very least.
Allyn Gibson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2009, 12:15 AM   #75
William Leisner
Scribbler
 
William Leisner's Avatar
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
View William Leisner's Twitter Profile
Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Instead of having one large ship that can separate into three smaller ships, they should design small ships that are capable of joining together into one larger, more powerful unit.

Ideally, one shaped like a giant robot.
William Leisner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
prometheus

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:23 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.