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Old June 20 2011, 02:01 PM   #256
Clawhammer
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Small spoiler alert:

In Children of the Storm's last chapter the Quirinal is on it's landing struts. While the shape of the Vesta would allow it to land, the long/lean pylons might put heavy strain on the structural integrity.

Quirinal and Esqueline will get a B type pylon. (swept forward.) This will also be a good feature to keep the 2 ships apart from the Aventine. (besides color differences.)

I'm not sure when I can make these changes, it might take a while.
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Old June 20 2011, 02:29 PM   #257
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Clawhammer wrote: View Post
Small spoiler alert:

In Children of the Storm's last chapter the Quirinal is on it's landing struts. While the shape of the Vesta would allow it to land, the long/lean pylons might put heavy strain on the structural integrity.

Quirinal and Esqueline will get a B type pylon. (swept forward.) This will also be a good feature to keep the 2 ships apart from the Aventine. (besides color differences.)

I'm not sure when I can make these changes, it might take a while.
Does that mean that Aventine can't land?
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Old June 20 2011, 02:39 PM   #258
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Does that mean that Aventine can't land?
Unless one of the Authors proofs me wrong, I would say: it's difficult.
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Old June 20 2011, 02:39 PM   #259
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Thought it was supposed to be similar is size to the E-E? Wouldn't have expected it to land in the first place, as IMO that's something that was already silly in something the size of Voyager, much less any larger ships.
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Old June 20 2011, 02:44 PM   #260
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Why can't all of the Vesta-class ships land? It doesn't make sense unless the Vesta is more like a basic ship design but each ship of the class is built differently with various test bed technologies or some such.
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Old June 20 2011, 03:06 PM   #261
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Thought it was supposed to be similar is size to the E-E? Wouldn't have expected it to land in the first place, as IMO that's something that was already silly in something the size of Voyager, much less any larger ships.
I have to agree, the Vesta's are smaller in volume but almost as long as the E-E. I do however think that the compact design of the Vesta might be beneficial.

BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Why can't all of the Vesta-class ships land? It doesn't make sense unless the Vesta is more like a basic ship design but each ship of the class is built differently with various test bed technologies or some such.

True! Aventine was outfitted with more experimental goodies. They might not have implemented the entire landing system from the start for various reasons. Perhaps the system could be installed during the next service window.


My only concern would be for the pylons, they need a strong SIF to reinforce them. No problem in normal operations, but I would recommend "saucer" separation in times of emergency.
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Old June 20 2011, 05:01 PM   #262
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

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I thought that it was trivially easy to retrofit existing Federation starships with slipstream, and that it was just benamite shortages which limited the transformation. If Voyager was able to almost implement it alone in the Delta Quadrant, I don't see why older vessels back in the Federation couldn't be similarly retrofitted, especially since warp and slipstream drives seem to require similar geometries.
The way we've dealt with it in the books, some starship classes are more easily adapted to slipstream than others. Basically you need something reasonably narrow, since the wider a slipstream conduit is, the exponentially harder it is to maintain. Something like Voyager, which is a pretty slender and cylindrical-ish design to start with, is easily adaptable to slipstream, but something like a Galaxy or Nebula-class ship wouldn't have a prayer.
What about the Soverign and Luna classes, could they use slipstream?
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Old June 20 2011, 07:43 PM   #263
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
What about the Soverign and Luna classes, could they use slipstream?
They're wide enough that it would be very difficult. That's why ships like Titan haven't been slipstream-converted even though it would be appropriate for their mission profile.

Of course, the Federation is surely continuing to research the technology, so there's always the possibility of a breakthrough that would make such conversions viable -- if there were a story that called for it.
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Old June 20 2011, 10:21 PM   #264
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

^Although I don't like the idea of having slipstream because it just seems like a ridiculous piece of technology of which the speed capability was up and down for a while, I like the fact that they limited its use through the rarity of the benamite ore. At least until a Coridan-like planet is found which is rich in the stuff, anyway.

But I am interested to know the capabilities of the ships in the fleet. Maximum speed (warp), weaponry and defensive capabilities (especially the Mulciber-class), etc.
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Old June 23 2011, 01:21 AM   #265
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Clawhammer wrote: View Post
BrotherBenny wrote: View Post
Does that mean that Aventine can't land?
Unless one of the Authors proofs me wrong, I would say: it's difficult.
But the thin pylons on the original showed how advanced it was because those thin structural parts could handle high stress and bending loads. We also know the original enterprise could handle atmospheric loads since it entered the Earth's atmosphere. If the Connie could handle those loads, couldn't the Vestas?

The Defiants also have landing struts so I would think the admiralty is wanting more ships to have landing capacity. Of course gear on the defiant didn't make much sense to me like it did for the Intrepids.
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Old June 23 2011, 01:24 AM   #266
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
What about the Soverign and Luna classes, could they use slipstream?
They're wide enough that it would be very difficult. That's why ships like Titan haven't been slipstream-converted even though it would be appropriate for their mission profile.

Of course, the Federation is surely continuing to research the technology, so there's always the possibility of a breakthrough that would make such conversions viable -- if there were a story that called for it.
I think the sovereign is very streamlined and could be easily retrofit. It is my understanding that slipstream isn't a size issue but a streamline issue.
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Old June 23 2011, 03:24 AM   #267
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I think the sovereign is very streamlined and could be easily retrofit. It is my understanding that slipstream isn't a size issue but a streamline issue.
Well, speaking as the guy who came up with the novels' explanation in the first place, I have to say that, no, it is in fact a size issue. Or rather, a width issue. The wider the slipstream corridor, the exponentially more complex the quantum computations needed to keep it stable. So a smaller ship can be relatively wide and be able to negotiate the corridor, but if you want to build a larger ship to get through a corridor of the same width, it has to be a proportionately narrower design.

On the other hand, power is probably a factor; a bigger ship with more powerful engines could create a wider corridor, so long as it had sufficient processing power/speed to keep up with the more intricate computations -- and that greater computing power might go along with a bigger ship as well (if only because a harder-working computer would need more ventilation space to keep from overheating). But still, you don't want it to be any wider than it has to be. So yes, in that sense a narrower, more "streamlined" ship is better. But that's an outgrowth of the size constraint. And as you go up in size, the drive gets riskier and harder to use, and you rapidly reach a point of diminishing returns.

So does the Sovereign class have the right balance of size, power, and narrowness to handle slipstream passage? It could, if there's a story that needs it to. But I think it would be pushing the envelope. If you look at the Sovereign from above, for instance here, you see it's actually a lot broader than it generally looks onscreen.
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Old June 23 2011, 04:32 AM   #268
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

Oh sure, pull the "I postulated the theory" card. Who am I to debate relativity with Einstein, lol. Just to clarify, weren't the design criteria for slipstream laid out in David Mack books?

Interesting explanation and thought, you could force your way through a corridor with powerful enough computers and engines. Christopher, you have an excellent engineering mind.

I would imagine width and height wouldn't be the only design criteria. I would foresee an "area rule" as used in super sonic aircraft design also being important.
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Old June 23 2011, 04:37 AM   #269
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

So if slipstream becomes the staple propulsion technology for starfleet, would we expect their ship of the line exploration cruisers to be smaller than the Sovereigns? And if bigger ships/slipstreams require more power output, should we expect starfleet to start R&D on more powerful eergy sources than mater/antimatter annihilation? If it was time for new propultion technology, might it also be time for new power generation technology?
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Old June 23 2011, 07:40 PM   #270
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Re: Discuss: The Voyager Fleet

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Oh sure, pull the "I postulated the theory" card. Who am I to debate relativity with Einstein, lol. Just to clarify, weren't the design criteria for slipstream laid out in David Mack books?
Dave and I were writing our respective books at the same time and we compared notes on the technology. There's info about slipstream in my Greater Than the Sum, Dave's Destiny, and Kirsten Beyer's VGR novels. But the part about the corridor width issue is mine.
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