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Old June 20 2009, 11:25 PM   #106
Jack Bauer
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Aren't they tired of killing off and then resurrecting characters again and again? Sounds boring.
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Old June 21 2009, 12:05 AM   #107
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
Cap is definitely iconic; people know the look and have a concept of what "Captain America" is, though this is actually somewhat problematic when selling the character/film (particularly outside the US), since perceptions of Cap are heavily linked to how you perceive America. The general public's image of Cap is a guy obnoxiously chanting "U-S-A!" and waving a "Four More Years of Bush" sign.
This is not only unfair but untrue. Your first part is right. Cap is seen as a figure who unapologetically chants "U-S-A!". He does so REGARDELESS of who the POTUS is, REGARDLESS.

You only demonstrate YOUR bias with your second untrue statement.
Captain America is apolitical.
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Old June 21 2009, 12:23 AM   #108
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

If Cap is apolitical why did he rebel against the government in Civil War? And didn't he also defect to Canada in the 80s or something like that, and that's when USAgent became Cap briefly?
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Old June 21 2009, 12:28 AM   #109
Captain Craig
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

He's rarely taken political stances. When he does its for one story. When he has its been a rebellion against a government idea, not one politician. His character is about being American, being a good soldier for those values.
He no more chants Go Bush than he would chant Go Nixon, Go Ford, Go Carter....ad nauseum.
He is Captain America.
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Old June 21 2009, 12:53 AM   #110
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Captain Craig wrote: View Post
This is not only unfair but untrue. Your first part is right. Cap is seen as a figure who unapologetically chants "U-S-A!". He does so REGARDELESS of who the POTUS is, REGARDLESS.

You only demonstrate YOUR bias with your second untrue statement.
Captain America is apolitical.
CaptainCanada wasn't addressing the 'truth' of the character, but his public perception, particularly outside the U.S. He's a character who dresses in the American flag, after all, and such overt 'patriotism' has become associated with a particularly virulent strain of American politics and the attitudes such an allegiance entails. The nuances of the character actually on the page are something altogether different.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
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Old June 21 2009, 01:39 AM   #111
Captain Craig
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
Captain Craig wrote: View Post
This is not only unfair but untrue. Your first part is right. Cap is seen as a figure who unapologetically chants "U-S-A!". He does so REGARDELESS of who the POTUS is, REGARDLESS.

You only demonstrate YOUR bias with your second untrue statement.
Captain America is apolitical.
CaptainCanada wasn't addressing the 'truth' of the character, but his public perception, particularly outside the U.S. He's a character who dresses in the American flag, after all, and such overt 'patriotism' has become associated with a particularly virulent strain of American politics and the attitudes such an allegiance entails. The nuances of the character actually on the page are something altogether different.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Well by 2011 the masses outside our borders wouldn't care at all cause Obama will still be in office. CaptainCanada was making a personal statement, if he wasn't his point as you see it is moot and wouldn't have been worth mentioning. But he mentioned it so...
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Old June 21 2009, 02:01 AM   #112
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Captain Craig wrote: View Post
Well by 2011 the masses outside our borders wouldn't care at all cause Obama will still be in office.
No, not really. The sort of muscular patriotism that Captain America is associated with is nowadays associated more or less exclusively with conservatism (whereas it was not in the more jingoistic period of his birth; you can see remnants of that earlier liberal tradition remaining in the works of writers like Aaron Sorkin). Certainly, Obama's election will make things easier for a Captain America movie abroad than they would have been under W., but it will never be separated from its jingoistic origin.

As to politics, he's always been depicted as a Roosevelt Democrat in the 1930s; they've strenuously avoided associating him with political parties since then (not wanting to diminish his attempted universal appeal), though based on the leanings he's shown in his private life he'd be a strong social liberal (pro-civil rights for blacks in the 1960s, pro-gay in the 1980s) and a Wilsonian internationalist.

Incidentally, one of my favourite posts on superhero political stances.
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Last edited by CaptainCanada; June 21 2009 at 02:18 AM.
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Old June 21 2009, 02:18 AM   #113
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

And Cap is about not just the country but the ideals of the country. Freedom. That's who he is at his core. That's why Civil War caused him to rebel simply because it was taking away freedoms. Period. It wasn't about simply making sure there's a listing of who the "good guys" are, it was about putting heroes at risk or under the control of the government, which is something that Cap has NEVER liked. I think New Avengers sort of summed up his feelings on the matter, he liked doing what he has to do not because he was ordered to, he does it because its right to act.

- And no I didn't forget Disassembled, House of M, WWH, basically making a point that in the past TWO FRAGGIN' YEARS, we've had 3 major status quo changes. I mean, that's pretty damn crazy. We go from Civil War to WWH (which sorta spun out of the CW so I count everything from Civil War up to Secret Invasion as one story, then Secret Invasion as another, and now Dark Reign as another. - Disassembled and House of M were sorta tied together, so I count those as one too)

But really, we had less than a year of the new status quo when things were changed up all over again.
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Old June 21 2009, 03:09 AM   #114
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
Incidentally, one of my favourite posts on superhero political stances.
I kinda disagreed with Green Lantern, even tho' I haven't read too much of him.

But I just *loved* the writeup on Hulk. He's the man!!
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Old June 22 2009, 03:42 AM   #115
Captain Craig
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
Captain Craig wrote: View Post
Well by 2011 the masses outside our borders wouldn't care at all cause Obama will still be in office.
No, not really. The sort of muscular patriotism that Captain America is associated with is nowadays associated more or less exclusively with conservatism.
I can only say that viewing him thru that prism is unfair to those democrats, blue dog or otherwise, that have your "muscular patriotism". You or others have placed an unjust box around this "perception of Cap".

Cap is about Freedom and Justice and while he may be cloaked in the colors of America those concepts are more than simply American. If people can't see past his Americanism and into who the core of the character is, regardless of who is in office, then thats a sad commentary on them.
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