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Old June 15 2009, 02:08 AM   #16
USS Triumphant
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
It always vaguely bothered me that the Borg drones were individually too retarded to disrupt their routine to deal with physical assaults, or, for that matter, boarders.

And being vulnerable to bullets when a phaser blast gets stopped cold makes no sense at all. That's like a tank shrugging off RPG rounds, but getting knocked out by massed musket fire.
No it isn't. Phasers and bullets are apples and oranges. RPG rounds and musket fire are apples and, well, really BIG apples.

I agree about boarders, though. You'd have to think that at some point they'd have assimilated that having strange people roaming your ship is a security risk.
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Old June 15 2009, 02:11 AM   #17
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

Anticitizen wrote: View Post
What I never understood is why our protagonists never tried simply overpowering the Personal Borg Shield (TM). Any time shields are fired upon in ST, the shields are weakened. Yet when the drones 'remodulate' their shields to adapt to phaser frequencies, our heroes give up. They never seem to have tried firing more in hopes to overpower the shield and penetrate it.
Well, if it takes 10 shots to overpower a drone's shield, and you're getting swarmed by an ever-increasing number of drones ready to corner you, then you look for a more efficient means of taking down the enemy.

As an aside, with the exception of Worf, I don't think there are any main Trek heroes who rely on beam-spam anyway.

Alternate nitpick: Why must drones move along so damn slowly, like zombies?
Drones can't think for themselves, are pale skinned, and have an almost primal urge to turn you into one of them. They're zombies alright

In-universe reason: no idea. You would think that with that many mechanical enhancements, a drone would be more like the Terminator than Robocop.
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Old June 15 2009, 03:00 AM   #18
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

Well we call them drones so we expect them to drone. Battle tactics are irrelevant as the mass of drones will eventually wear you down and assimilate you. They will assimilate you faster then you will kill them of this the Queen is sure. Drones freed from the collective did seem more Terminator the Robocop.
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Old June 15 2009, 05:07 AM   #19
James Wright
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

Hey Timo remember that pile of Borg bodies Kes saw in her vision? I'm just guessing here and if I'm wrong you all will let me know it, I'm guessing that a single member of Species 8472 made that pile of bodies, Harry Kim met the dude, sort of!(Might've been a dudette!)

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Old June 15 2009, 08:05 AM   #20
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

Then again, that entire Cube was badly hurt by what supposedly were 8472 starships; the Drones could have gone down as part of the Cube, rather than as victims of personal violence.

On the matter of using bullet guns as an alternative when phasers fail, I'd argue that phasers are inherently more reconfigurable than bullet guns. Thus, it might be more worthwhile to try and find new modulations on your phaser than to go and fetch a bullet gun that will only work once and can never be modified or modulated.

On the matter of the Drones moving slowly and not engaging in counterattacks or fancy martial arts moves... Perhaps the Collective deems it more valuable that they continue their original work, or fight the intruders by operating the Cube rather than by combating the boarding party directly? Difficult to find a good justification.

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Old June 15 2009, 08:18 AM   #21
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

I'm fairly certain that it wouldn't take the Borg too long to figure out how to deal with swords and guns, especially since Humans have been dealing with those things for thousands of years now...
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Old June 15 2009, 10:24 AM   #22
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

USS_Triumphant wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
It always vaguely bothered me that the Borg drones were individually too retarded to disrupt their routine to deal with physical assaults, or, for that matter, boarders.

And being vulnerable to bullets when a phaser blast gets stopped cold makes no sense at all. That's like a tank shrugging off RPG rounds, but getting knocked out by massed musket fire.
No it isn't. Phasers and bullets are apples and oranges. RPG rounds and musket fire are apples and, well, really BIG apples.

I agree about boarders, though. You'd have to think that at some point they'd have assimilated that having strange people roaming your ship is a security risk.
Phasers are so inconsistently portrayed it's hard to know for sure what they are. Maybe some kind of plantain.
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Old June 15 2009, 10:25 AM   #23
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

Theoretically, one way would be to become Neo the Bullet-time Dancer. Since the Borg never come "pre-adapted", but always revert back to their vulnerable basic form at the absence of threats, one might theoretically say that this is what happens when you fire a machine gun at a gaggle of Drones long enough, or when you send in your samurai horde. That is, the Drones are sluggish only on default mode, perhaps because this saves energy, and can easily use their superior bodies and their technological boosters to move very fast - but only when needed for the protection of the Collective. The protection of individual Drones would not merit such an adaptation.

Another possibility would be a shield shell that is impervious to bullets and swords. The former would probably be easy enough, as long as it selectively stopped fast-moving bullets and didn't hinder the Drone from accessing the slowly moving gun wielder it wished to assimilate. But the latter would be a bigger problem, because a swinging sword would not be all that different from this slowly moving assimilation target.

A third counter, good against swords, would be counterattack by a ranged weapon. We saw Lore's rogue Borg utilize those. The regular Borg aren't into infantry attacks, but they could probably adopt ranged weapons if swordsmen became too much of a nuisance.

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Old June 15 2009, 10:49 AM   #24
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

The Borg have adapted to Phasers hundreds of times yet over any length of time when the Feds meet the Borg again Phasers have become useful once more. It takes several shots before the Borg adapt to the Phasers again.
When we saw the Borg blasted with bullets and cut up by a sword they aren't something that happened a lot. I mean as far as i'm aware the Borg were shot only the one time by Picard, certainly not long enough for them to adapt. If it takes them a few shots to adapt to phasers which they've adapted to many times in the past then it stands to reason they might require being shot at least a few times before they adapt to projectile weapons.
If Borg drones can create a shield around them then ANY shield regardless of its frequency will stop bullets. For phasers they tune them better but for bullets no tuning is required.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Borg given more time than one single encounter with bullets would adapt and raise a shield.
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Old June 15 2009, 11:15 AM   #25
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

For phasers they tune them better but for bullets no tuning is required.
One wonders. After all, ST:GEN indicated that the Klingon torpedoes would penetrate better if adjusted for the frequency of the victim ship's shields...

Now, how one "adjusts" a torpedo or other physical projectile is unknown. Perhaps a specific shield-penetrating doodad aboard the projectile is tuned in a specific way? That would mean that if the doodad could be sufficiently miniaturized, one could fire RPGs or perhaps even bullets through shields, with the ease of penetration depending on how well the shield parameters of the target were known.

Alternately, perhaps the Klingon torpedoes were not projectile weapons - but I'd hate to use the terminology that way when all other torpedoes in Trek are indeed established as physical weapons. (Even the Romulan "plasma torpedoes" from DS9 are supposedly shipped to their location of intended use, suggesting they are physical ammo; the Romulan plasma weapons from TOS were never given a formal name, least of all "plasma torpedo".)

The third alternative is that the torpedoes were not tuned; only the wingtip disruptors of the BoP were. The Duras Sisters still opened the game with torpedoes, so perhaps those can penetrate even the best starship shields when fired at point-blank range, without requiring any trickery? But if so, the Duras protestations of their BoP being utterly unmatched would sound a bit more hollow, and the value of the shield-negating trick would decrease.

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Old June 15 2009, 04:38 PM   #26
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

Federation forcefields are immediately effective against both directed energy weapons and projectiles. And we have yet to see an "individual" forcefield. Perhaps because the energy consumption is too big?

The borg drones' protection field takes time to adapt to every threat - but when it does adapt, it becomes practically impervious. And it seems to have trouble adapting to projectiles and hand to hand combat - we have yet to see it adapting to these attacks. Plus, it can be mounted on a drone.

That's sufficient evidence to confirm that the technologies are quite different.

I suppose the borg will ultimately adapt to projectile weapons by making drones with a thicker physical armour or by utilizing a different technology for the drones' energy fields.

Of course, a borg cube is a different matter - there is a HUGE difference between its shields and the shield of a drone.
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Old June 15 2009, 08:25 PM   #27
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

Timo wrote: View Post
At least, that's how the requirements of drama would go. It would be too big a plot complication, not to mention too much of a tech contradiction, if the Borg could somehow block a swinging fist.
Well the requirements of drama will make the Borg as tough or vulnerable as they need to be to serve the story that week, which is why they appear weaker on Voyager, as the little Fed ship has to get away every week.

You have a point about identification, but surely the software controlling the shields is advanced enough to recognise a blade travelling quickly enough to wound? Even software of the now could probably do that.
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Old June 15 2009, 08:58 PM   #28
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

It's not just that - it's what the software needs to do. In order to block swords but allow for a fondle of an assimilable console or a grip on the victim's shoulder, the defensive routine would need to raise and drop the kinetic-barrier shield again and again, sometimes very rapidly. Not only would this interrupt important operations, it might be very hard on the shield-generating hardware.

It's all fine and well to erect a slab-sided beam-blocker some distance away from the Drone, as in "Q Who?" and other TNG eps, as long as this doesn't prevent the Drone's hands from assimilating the interesting console. But a shield intended to defeat close-and-personal sword or fist attacks would deal with a different, more mobile situation, and might hinder operations too much. If the Drone could isolate itself inside a largish shield "greenhouse" good against all threats for the duration of its mission, that'd be ideal. But it may not be practicable.

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Old June 15 2009, 09:49 PM   #29
Peter the Younger
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
At least, that's how the requirements of drama would go. It would be too big a plot complication, not to mention too much of a tech contradiction, if the Borg could somehow block a swinging fist.
Well the requirements of drama will make the Borg as tough or vulnerable as they need to be to serve the story that week, which is why they appear weaker on Voyager, as the little Fed ship has to get away every week.
Ain't that the sad truth.

First Contact was about the time I started to call bullshit on the Borg's often cited ability to "adapt." If the sum total of your adaptive abilities consists of turning a dial on the personal shield frequency settings, that's pretty poor.
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Old June 16 2009, 03:51 PM   #30
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Re: Borg vs kenetic weapons

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Federation forcefields are immediately effective against both directed energy weapons and projectiles. And we have yet to see an "individual" forcefield. Perhaps because the energy consumption is too big?
Worf is able to modify a com-badge into a force field in A Fist Full of Data's which lasts long enough to stop him being shot.

The Borg should come complete with a kevlar style bullet proofing included in their armour, and if they don't their nanites should be able to give them such a coating after the collective gets shot at a few times.

Trek changes how it's tech works from episode to episode making it impossible to work out why things are the way they are.

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