Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

[Kestrel]

Soo.... andersonh1 gives an example of how the (seemingly) out-of-nowhere C/7 pairing is perfectly feasible in real life, and the responses are "that makes bad teevee"? Sorry, but that's a completely subjective response, and doesn't make his point any less valid. Why would you want the C/7 romance to be exactly like all the others? Maybe the fact that it's more like real life than normal TV is a good thing in some viewers eyes, by giving us something unexpected.

[Mach5]

Kestrel wrote:

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Soo.... andersonh1 gives an example of how the (seemingly) out-of-nowhere C/7 pairing is perfectly feasible in real life, and the responses are "that makes bad teevee"?

Boring teevee, to be more precise.
(again, It's not my intention to offend andersonh1. Its not that important how we find love... Its only important that we do find it.

Kestrel wrote:

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Sorry, but that's a completely subjective response, and doesn't make his point any less valid. Why would you want the C/7 romance to be exactly like all the others? Maybe the fact that it's more like real life than normal TV is a good thing in some viewers eyes, by giving us something unexpected.

Of course my response was subjective (most of them are). That's why I listed things that I expected from TV romances.

[KayArr]

I guess it didn't bug me because it wasn't a tv romance--the big romance of the series was B'Elanna and Tom. Seven was a great character without romance, Chakotay was hardly a character at all, so to have a romance between them be a plot point in the finale because it's really only barely starting in Endgame and the real romance will blossom after the show's over seemed perfectly satisfactory to me.

Think of Endgame as the start of a romance, not a full-blown romance that started months before. Endgame is a hint of what's to come--after all Seven was Chakotay's wife when she died, not at the time of Endgame itself. I haven't read the novels that came after and don't intend to--the show is canon enough for me.

Don't get me started on the doctor and Seven--sheesh, what they did with the doctor in the last 2 seasons was just awful. I don't blame them in some ways, because Picardo was so good in the role--but there are some eps there at the end that I don't ever intend to watch again. Message in a Bottle was o.k. (the two EMHs, right?) and even the Wink of an Eye plot (name?), but the stuff thereafter, was just totally contrived. A "romance" between a flesh and blood woman and a hologram is just silly--let him find another hologram.

[Zameaze]

Kestrel wrote:

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Soo.... andersonh1 gives an example of how the (seemingly) out-of-nowhere C/7 pairing is perfectly feasible in real life, and the responses are "that makes bad teevee"? Sorry, but that's a completely subjective response

But…but…but…that’s the only kind of response I know how to give.

and doesn't make his point any less valid.

That is, if we exclude the fact that good fiction has to follow certain rules, whereas real life rarely follows them.

[Newski]

Zameaze wrote:

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OK, Chicago, this means war!

Bring it!


At that point in the series, Ryan hadn't actually acted since "Unimatrix Zero."

Or maybe my standards are too high.. Robert Picardo is in the show, and I expect people in the show to be at least HALF as good as he is, and that's pretty hard to do.

[andersonh1]

Mach5 wrote:

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Boring teevee, to be more precise.
(again, It's not my intention to offend andersonh1. Its not that important how we find love... Its only important that we do find it.

No offense taken.

Your point is equally valid... that a buildup usually makes for better drama than an out of nowhere relationship. I'm just pointing out that the latter can happen, and it can be made to work dramatically I'm sure... too bad we only had the one episode to explore the idea on Voyager.

[Kestrel]

Mach5 wrote:

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Of course my response was subjective (most of them are). That's why I listed things that I expected from TV romances.

Zameaze wrote:

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But…but…but…that’s the only kind of response I know how to give.

Ok... points taken. And you're right, of course.

Zameaze wrote:

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That is, if we exclude the fact that good fiction has to follow certain rules, whereas real life rarely follows them.

Hmm... That's an interesting thought, that good fiction has to follow certain rules. I mean, for the most part I agree that it ought to, but I wouldn't rule fiction out of the "good" category just because it bucks the rules occasionally. Would you say that it has to, or that it generally does (and generally for good reason).

Would the C/7 relationship have been more popular had it begun, say, mid-S7 and had some exploration, with the Endgame "out of nowhere" only being the beginning as KayArr suggests?

[Mach5]

Kestrel wrote:

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Would the C/7 relationship have been more popular had it begun, say, mid-S7 and had some exploration, with the Endgame "out of nowhere" only being the beginning as KayArr suggests?

No doubt about it! If TPTB had put C&7 together earlier, shown the audience some interesting interaction, some attraction and/or seduction, the romance would have made sense.

[Guy Gardener]

But can you imagine her pick up lines?

"I plan on exploring my sexuality. You have thirty seconds to decide if you will explore it with me."

[Mach5]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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But can you imagine her pick up lines?

"I plan on exploring my sexuality. You have thirty seconds to decide if you will explore it with me."

God I wish chicks said stuff like that more often...
(especially the ones looking like Jeri Ryan)

[Kestrel]

Mach5 wrote:

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God I wish chicks said stuff like that more often...
(especially the ones looking like Jeri Ryan)

Indeed.

[Zameaze]

Kestrel wrote:

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Ok... points taken. And you're right, of course.

Hmm... That's an interesting thought, that good fiction has to follow certain rules. I mean, for the most part I agree that it ought to, but I wouldn't rule fiction out of the "good" category just because it bucks the rules occasionally. Would you say that it has to, or that it generally does (and generally for good reason).

Good fiction absolutely has to follow some basic rules--all the time, without exception. Three of these rules are--good fiction must always have conflict, must always have dramatic action, and must always have resolution. Break any one of these rules, and you don't have a decent story. Try it. Without conflict, we never get to know the character. Conflict makes the character take action and reveal himself. The character wins or loses and we have resolution.

[kimc]

Kestrel wrote:

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Would the C/7 relationship have been more popular had it begun, say, mid-S7 and had some exploration, with the Endgame "out of nowhere" only being the beginning as KayArr suggests?

I think there would have had to have been more resolution to J/C for that to happen but given Seven's emotional state I don't think it has the potential to be wildly popular. Like someone above already said, "Human Error" pretty much ruined Seven's chances of a normal life. In fact, according to a Braga interview on the Season 7 dvd "Human Error" was setting up a tragic arc for Seven where she would die to save the ship in the finale.

Putting that aside one way they could have done it was to go ahead with the original "Workforce" idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra. This would have given the characters an arc going into the finale where they decide where they stand after coming back to the ship. If the Quarra relationship ended up demonstrating "all the reasons we should just be friends" then that would have been the end of J/C and they could have paired Chakotay with someone else.

As it was it seems most fans had similar "WTF" expresseions on their faces when the show ended.

[Tachyon]

There is no way C/7 can be given a positive spin. There was "hot mess" written all over it. I am biased, however.

[Kestrel]

Zameaze wrote:

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Good fiction absolutely has to follow some basic rules--all the time, without exception. Three of these rules are--good fiction must always have conflict, must always have dramatic action, and must always have resolution. Break any one of these rules, and you don't have a decent story. Try it. Without conflict, we never get to know the character. Conflict makes the character take action and reveal himself. The character wins or loses and we have resolution.

Oh, building-block stuff. Ok, I gotcha. Well, two out of three I agree are always essential, that's conflict and action. I would argue that resolution is the one element that you could conceivably go without and still have a good story. Not often, not even every now and again, but once in a blue moon, leaving a story unresolved can be effective I think. The only example I can think of, off the top of my head, is the end of Joss Whedon's "Angel." Or, and this one's actually better, 2001: A Space Odyssey.

kimc wrote:

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I think there would have had to have been more resolution to J/C for that to happen but given Seven's emotional state I don't think it has the potential to be wildly popular. Like someone above already said, "Human Error" pretty much ruined Seven's chances of a normal life. In fact, according to a Braga interview on the Season 7 dvd "Human Error" was setting up a tragic arc for Seven where she would die to save the ship in the finale.

Putting that aside one way they could have done it was to go ahead with the original "Workforce" idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra. This would have given the characters an arc going into the finale where they decide where they stand after coming back to the ship. If the Quarra relationship ended up demonstrating "all the reasons we should just be friends" then that would have been the end of J/C and they could have paired Chakotay with someone else.

As it was it seems most fans had similar "WTF" expresseions on their faces when the show ended.

Maybe the resolution of J/C was that they both decided the situation they were in precluded a healthy romantic relationship due to their respective positions? Sure, it would've been nice to have that spelled out, but that's a reasonable scenario and fits what we've been shown. That said, I think I much prefer where TrekLit has gone with that thread - I'm defending C/7 here, but it's only one possible option, and Kirsten Beyer's done great in depicting (for while it lasted) the more popular pairing.

Regarding Seven's emotional state, is that so much different than Neelix with Kes? Regardless, there's nobody on Voyager I'd trust more with Seven's emotional state than Chakotay by the end of the show - aside maybe Tuvok, but he's married. And I think I have a different read of "Human Error" than you, especially the end of it - there's no suggestion that HoloDoc can't do the surgery at some later date, just that Seven refused it - for now. Similar to Data's emotion chip, in fact, just more potentially lethal. In fact, that possiblity even ties in very nicely with Braga's proposed tragic arc. She has the implant rewired, is capable of experiencing the full range of emotions, begins a relationship with somebody (Chakotay, Kim, HoloDoc, Random Dude #3, take your pick), only to die heroically saving the ship.