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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

View Poll Results: Chakotay / Seven pairing gets:
Thumbs up! 21 17.80%
Thumbs down! 97 82.20%
Voters: 118. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 13 2009, 06:25 PM   #511
Guy Gardener
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

If Worf was trapped long enough, he'd eat who ever he was trapped in the lift with, but B'Elanna is only half Klingon, do you think she'd wait till after her liftmates were dead, or only twice as long as the full blooded variety?
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Old July 13 2009, 11:47 PM   #512
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

I never cared for Chakotay and didnt buy the pairing for one second.
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Old July 14 2009, 12:37 AM   #513
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Maybe he did buy her?

The Dowry tradition is ancient among several cultures including (after a brief Google confirmation) some Native American Samplings... Um, who would Chuckles hand over the 9 chickens too? Janeway possibly or would he backtrack to Borgland to pay due custom for his blonde Borg Princess to the Queen?
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Old July 15 2009, 01:26 PM   #514
Saquist
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
No, they wanted to give the illusion of exploring her sexuality with out actually having to follow through, like when you tell your kids that YES you will play monopoly with them because you love them and want to spend time with them, 5 minutes before they have to brush their teeth for bedtime.

They knew the limits of their mandate. Titillate with out any follow through. Follow through is bad.

I wanted to explore the sexuality of all the characters, see what they had to offer, then screw with the status quo and wait for explosions and bed hopping and... I have been watching altogether too much One tree Hill.

I was very happy that Voyager kept it clean.
Sex is already everywhere else and it tends to put women in a very degrading roles.

Perfect example is Seven and absolutely dominating force, sucking Chakotay's finger....(gross) I had my cousins skip that episode. There are plenty of shows out there for sex...

That sort of exposure was done for Enterprise and it essentially destroyed T'pol's character right from the begining. It said even if you're logical you can be a sex kitten. I don't want my girls growing up with that glass ceiling on top of them. I don't want my boys to grow up learning this is the purpose of women....not from a ...TV show.

I'll raise my own kids if I have them not a stupid TV show.
That's the big problem with Enterprise....that ...smutt should have been on late...like BSG. I stopped watching it because how much smutt was in the show. So it was Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis and then off to bed.
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Old July 15 2009, 01:59 PM   #515
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Saquist wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
No, they wanted to give the illusion of exploring her sexuality with out actually having to follow through, like when you tell your kids that YES you will play monopoly with them because you love them and want to spend time with them, 5 minutes before they have to brush their teeth for bedtime.

They knew the limits of their mandate. Titillate with out any follow through. Follow through is bad.

I wanted to explore the sexuality of all the characters, see what they had to offer, then screw with the status quo and wait for explosions and bed hopping and... I have been watching altogether too much One tree Hill.

I was very happy that Voyager kept it clean.
Sex is already everywhere else and it tends to put women in a very degrading roles.

Perfect example is Seven and absolutely dominating force, sucking Chakotay's finger....(gross) I had my cousins skip that episode. There are plenty of shows out there for sex...

That sort of exposure was done for Enterprise and it essentially destroyed T'pol's character right from the begining. It said even if you're logical you can be a sex kitten. I don't want my girls growing up with that glass ceiling on top of them. I don't want my boys to grow up learning this is the purpose of women....not from a ...TV show.

I'll raise my own kids if I have them not a stupid TV show.
That's the big problem with Enterprise....that ...smutt should have been on late...like BSG. I stopped watching it because how much smutt was in the show. So it was Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis and then off to bed.
Thanks for posting this, Saquist. It's good to get a new perspective, one from someone with younger children who are also watching the show. Your comments seem to reinforce Mulgrew's adamant position that Janeway not be seen as promiscuous on the program. Unfortunately, you and your family were not part of the "target" audience for the writers late in the TV era. TPTB assumed that men between the ages of 18-35 (their primary audience) want curvaceous and somewhat "kittenish" women portrayed on the screen. Whether that attitude contributed to the downward spiral of Voyager/Enterprise is without a doubt open to speculation.

I agree that focusing on the "sexual exploration" in relationships would be to the detriment of the plot in many cases, but I feel that relationships have their proper place in TV programming, if done well. They can be displayed without resorting to "sucking fingers" or rubbing each other's bare skin in a detox tank. I thought the Seiko/Miles O'Brien relationship was good on DS9, and Paris/Torres decent on Voyager.

However, as an important demographic, your opinion matters. Many of us became Star Trek fans as children--and your children are truly the future for upcoming movies and TV series.
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Old July 15 2009, 07:27 PM   #516
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

How hard did she have try really if you look at how much of a whore Archer wasn't. IN HIS RIGHT MIND he kissed maybe three women, one was a genetic test to see if he was lying, one was to distract a prewarp monkey when his translator went on the blink, and the other was an old girlfriend who decided to haunt him a little. Considering on Quantum Leap, Sam Beckit kisses a different girl every episode, 15 of which are displayed during the opening credits, he slept with a few of them and even made a child with one of them, Bakula's willingness to appear whorish was not exploited in the slightest, so ultimately I think it's a fortunate coincidence that Mulgrew didn't want to be written as a slapper and the TPTB didn't know how to write one.
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Old July 15 2009, 09:13 PM   #517
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

It was sometimes embarrassing watching Enterprise with my adult son in the room. Odd that Star Trek can get so many things right but still fumbles the sex/relationship ball. I liked seeing Tom and B'Elanna have a grown up relationship. It's sad that so many Trek characters are still stuck in Jr. High school dating cycles.
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Old July 15 2009, 11:01 PM   #518
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Chakotay and Seven? They were no Worf and Troi!
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Old July 16 2009, 03:22 PM   #519
exodus
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

AuntKate wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
No, they wanted to give the illusion of exploring her sexuality with out actually having to follow through, like when you tell your kids that YES you will play monopoly with them because you love them and want to spend time with them, 5 minutes before they have to brush their teeth for bedtime.

They knew the limits of their mandate. Titillate with out any follow through. Follow through is bad.

I wanted to explore the sexuality of all the characters, see what they had to offer, then screw with the status quo and wait for explosions and bed hopping and... I have been watching altogether too much One tree Hill.

I was very happy that Voyager kept it clean.
Sex is already everywhere else and it tends to put women in a very degrading roles.

Perfect example is Seven and absolutely dominating force, sucking Chakotay's finger....(gross) I had my cousins skip that episode. There are plenty of shows out there for sex...

That sort of exposure was done for Enterprise and it essentially destroyed T'pol's character right from the begining. It said even if you're logical you can be a sex kitten. I don't want my girls growing up with that glass ceiling on top of them. I don't want my boys to grow up learning this is the purpose of women....not from a ...TV show.

I'll raise my own kids if I have them not a stupid TV show.
That's the big problem with Enterprise....that ...smutt should have been on late...like BSG. I stopped watching it because how much smutt was in the show. So it was Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis and then off to bed.
Thanks for posting this, Saquist. It's good to get a new perspective, one from someone with younger children who are also watching the show. Your comments seem to reinforce Mulgrew's adamant position that Janeway not be seen as promiscuous on the program. Unfortunately, you and your family were not part of the "target" audience for the writers late in the TV era. TPTB assumed that men between the ages of 18-35 (their primary audience) want curvaceous and somewhat "kittenish" women portrayed on the screen. Whether that attitude contributed to the downward spiral of Voyager/Enterprise is without a doubt open to speculation.

I agree that focusing on the "sexual exploration" in relationships would be to the detriment of the plot in many cases, but I feel that relationships have their proper place in TV programming, if done well. They can be displayed without resorting to "sucking fingers" or rubbing each other's bare skin in a detox tank. I thought the Seiko/Miles O'Brien relationship was good on DS9, and Paris/Torres decent on Voyager.

However, as an important demographic, your opinion matters. Many of us became Star Trek fans as children--and your children are truly the future for upcoming movies and TV series.
TOS the Trek that started all of this, was full of sexual exploration and innuendo. There are jokes even about how Kirk slept with every women he met, even the green one. How about the fact that every child shown on TOS were evil! Uhrua was even raped in "Gamesmaster of Triskailion."(sp) Trek's underlying theme is to influence discussion of political & social injustices. Trek's demographic was never children.
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Old July 16 2009, 05:02 PM   #520
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

^^ However, Trek never approaches these issues head on. They don't address race descrimination, they have a species with faces that are half white and half black. They don't address homosexuality, they look at a species where all sexuality is repressed and the expression of any sexuality is censored. That is what is charming about "traditional" Trek, and that is what disappeared in the later years, and especially on ENT IMHO.
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Old July 16 2009, 06:59 PM   #521
Pemmer Harge
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Star Trek didn't need to "address" homosexuality, but acknowledging its existence might have been nice...
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Old July 16 2009, 07:23 PM   #522
Saquist
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

AuntKate wrote: View Post
Thanks for posting this, Saquist. It's good to get a new perspective, one from someone with younger children who are also watching the show. Your comments seem to reinforce Mulgrew's adamant position that Janeway not be seen as promiscuous on the program. Unfortunately, you and your family were not part of the "target" audience for the writers late in the TV era. TPTB assumed that men between the ages of 18-35 (their primary audience) want curvaceous and somewhat "kittenish" women portrayed on the screen. Whether that attitude contributed to the downward spiral of Voyager/Enterprise is without a doubt open to speculation.
Hopefully I got the quotes seperated...
It is debated. I can only say that it contributed to me turning away.
Sex is thrown at me everywhere I go. Some us feed on it and other like myself find it egregous and forced.


I agree that focusing on the "sexual exploration" in relationships would be to the detriment of the plot in many cases, but I feel that relationships have their proper place in TV programming, if done well. They can be displayed without resorting to "sucking fingers" or rubbing each other's bare skin in a detox tank. I thought the Seiko/Miles O'Brien relationship was good on DS9, and Paris/Torres decent on Voyager.
Those a great examples of real relationships.
I think we've forgotten this as a culture.



oldstredshrtevr wrote: View Post
It was sometimes embarrassing watching Enterprise with my adult son in the room. Odd that Star Trek can get so many things right but still fumbles the sex/relationship ball. I liked seeing Tom and B'Elanna have a grown up relationship. It's sad that so many Trek characters are still stuck in Jr. High school dating cycles.
I can truely relate.
What a perfect way to relate the problme....High School relationships.

TOS the Trek that started all of this, was full of sexual exploration and innuendo. There are jokes even about how Kirk slept with every women he met, even the green one. How about the fact that every child shown on TOS were evil! Uhrua was even raped in "Gamesmaster of Triskailion."(sp) Trek's underlying theme is to influence discussion of political & social injustices. Trek's demographic was never children.[/QUOTE]

It's true Star Trek true Demographic has been for young adults. But realize also they put all (most) Trek in the prime time timeslots where the most amount people adults and kids could see it so it had to appropriate for viewing.

AuntKate wrote: View Post
^^ However, Trek never approaches these issues head on. They don't address race descrimination, they have a species with faces that are half white and half black. They don't address homosexuality, they look at a species where all sexuality is repressed and the expression of any sexuality is censored. That is what is charming about "traditional" Trek, and that is what disappeared in the later years, and especially on ENT IMHO.
I like that pattern you've illuminated.
I wasn't always aware of that.
In other words Trek tried to be preachy without being profoundly obvious just recognizable.
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Old July 18 2009, 07:30 AM   #523
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

AuntKate wrote: View Post
^^ However, Trek never approaches these issues head on. They don't address race descrimination, they have a species with faces that are half white and half black. They don't address homosexuality, they look at a species where all sexuality is repressed and the expression of any sexuality is censored. That is what is charming about "traditional" Trek, and that is what disappeared in the later years, and especially on ENT IMHO.
While you're generally right, I don't think "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" is the best episode to cite for subtlety. I mean really, people who are half black and half white?
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Old July 18 2009, 07:43 AM   #524
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Thoughts on Seven/Chakotay? It came virtually out of nowhere and felt forced. Chakotay should have ended up with Janeway.
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Old July 18 2009, 01:40 PM   #525
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Re: Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Kestrel wrote: View Post
AuntKate wrote: View Post
^^ However, Trek never approaches these issues head on. They don't address race descrimination, they have a species with faces that are half white and half black. They don't address homosexuality, they look at a species where all sexuality is repressed and the expression of any sexuality is censored. That is what is charming about "traditional" Trek, and that is what disappeared in the later years, and especially on ENT IMHO.
While you're generally right, I don't think "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" is the best episode to cite for subtlety. I mean really, people who are half black and half white?
I said that they approached issues indirectly. You used the word subtle, not me. However, I do remember being confused about the discrimination, the first time I saw the episode, because I frankly didn't distinguish between characters based on which side of their faces were black and white. In fact, I didn't even notice the difference until the characters pointed it out. Isn't that subtlety?
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