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Old July 14 2009, 01:17 AM   #1
Unimatrix_0
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Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

What I mean by this is the fact that the first and second season had some interesting storylines regarding a wormhole that reached the alpha quadrant, or the possibility of Chakotay and Janeway stranded on a planet. I think that these types of stories would have conveyed much more feeling if they came later on in the seasons. Of course one problem that is encountered immediately is the 7 of 9 "I am Borg, and I can fix anything issue."
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Old July 14 2009, 06:42 PM   #2
Lynx
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

Unimatrix_0 wrote: View Post
What I mean by this is the fact that the first and second season had some interesting storylines regarding a wormhole that reached the alpha quadrant, or the possibility of Chakotay and Janeway stranded on a planet. I think that these types of stories would have conveyed much more feeling if they came later on in the seasons. Of course one problem that is encountered immediately is the 7 of 9 "I am Borg, and I can fix anything issue."
You do have a point here. I would also have prferred more story arcs where certain events could have developed through some episodes. Therefore I liked the Kazon arc in season 2 where Jonas were revealed as a traitor.

Many times it was simply too much of:
Maquis unhappy with being on ship-Wham-bam solved!

Torres have lousy attitude-Wham-bam-fixed.

Kes and Neelix break up-Wham-bam-broken up (and the couldn't create a decent break up either).

I also agree that there were too much of Super-Seven saves the day, I mean she could actually bring back people to life after they had died too.
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Old July 14 2009, 07:09 PM   #3
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

I agree that some of the early "chance to get home" shows didn't really work, since they pushed the "suspension of disbelief" (inherent in almost all drama) just too far — it is not just that you "knew" Voyager wasn't going to get home that episode, you really, really knew they weren't going to get home, because that was like the entire premise of the show.

Although I agree with just about everyone here on these forums that Voyager needed more continuity, part of the problem with the arcs in seasons 1-2 is that they basically forced the ship to be flying in circles around Kazon/Vidian space — that is, the arcs helped cripple any sense of progression in Voyager's mission home. Unfortunately, season 3 just kind of threw out arcs entirely instead of finding a way to have both arcs and overall mission progress.

(I still think along with others that the best way to have both would have been the temporary allies concept used in episodes like "Void" and "Alliances", where Voyager joined up with people who were also nomadic, explorer/traveller types, except that these alliances would span episodes — the most popular aliens/characters even becoming permanent recurring characters — instead of being one and done.)
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Old July 15 2009, 02:11 AM   #4
Anwar
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

Bertie wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, season 3 just kind of threw out arcs entirely instead of finding a way to have both arcs and overall mission progress.
Easier said than done, when your premise is that the ship will always be on the move and not stay in one spot. That doesn't leave much room for arcs of continuity without betraying the show's premise.

So which is it, betray the premise and make arcs that would confuse and turn off the casual viewers, or stick to the premise and ditch the arc storytelling and be labeled a "primitive" show?
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Old July 15 2009, 07:23 AM   #5
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

Bertie wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, season 3 just kind of threw out arcs entirely instead of finding a way to have both arcs and overall mission progress.
Really? Because for me season 3 is one of the seasons where the story arcs are clearly taken in the consideration.
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Old July 16 2009, 06:20 PM   #6
Lynx
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Bertie wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, season 3 just kind of threw out arcs entirely instead of finding a way to have both arcs and overall mission progress.
Easier said than done, when your premise is that the ship will always be on the move and not stay in one spot. That doesn't leave much room for arcs of continuity without betraying the show's premise.

So which is it, betray the premise and make arcs that would confuse and turn off the casual viewers, or stick to the premise and ditch the arc storytelling and be labeled a "primitive" show?
On the contrary, I think that a series where they are constantly on the move would be perfect for arcs.

Take the Kes-Neelix breakup. It was very badly handled in "Warlord".

What if they had had it as an arc, for 4-5 episodes after "Parturition". That would have given some depth and a good explanation to why they did broke up.

Or Tuvok and the former Maquis he was training. Instead of solving the differencies in one episode, it could have been spread out during 4-5 episodes as well.

Not to mention that we never saw Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell again which was a pity. They were good characters.
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Old July 16 2009, 07:29 PM   #7
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

the lower decks were a wasted mine of storygold waiting to be told. it would have enhanced Voyager all the more to see more of the ship's other crew and thier daily lives too.
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Old July 17 2009, 01:56 AM   #8
Anwar
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

Too much money to bring back recurring characters and have side-arcs. That would just turn off the casual viewer who missed one episode of the arc and would be confused over the changed events.
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Old July 17 2009, 03:13 AM   #9
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

i never cared for the Kazon much but i thought the Vidians should have been kept around a bit longer. i thought they were pretty interesting and complex. would have liked more Maquis centered episodes. like an episode that would be a flashback to before the Maquis encountered Voyager.
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Old July 17 2009, 03:41 AM   #10
Fish1941
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

Unimatrix_0 wrote: View Post
What I mean by this is the fact that the first and second season had some interesting storylines regarding a wormhole that reached the alpha quadrant, or the possibility of Chakotay and Janeway stranded on a planet. I think that these types of stories would have conveyed much more feeling if they came later on in the seasons. Of course one problem that is encountered immediately is the 7 of 9 "I am Borg, and I can fix anything issue."

SIGH! What now? What is it now? Please explain how a story about Janeway and Chakotay or any other character being stranded on a planet was supposed to have more revelance in the later seasons than in the earlier ones. Come to think of it, there was an episode about B'Elanna being stranded on a planet in late Season 6. Wait a minute. There was a two-part story about most of the crew being stuck on some planet as workers with their memories erased in mid Season 7.

Or are saying that VOYAGER should have ended with the crew stranded permanently on a planet in the Delta Quadrant? Mind you, I could have accepted that scenario, but I suspect that many VOY fans would be screaming bloody murder.

Oh, and by the way . . . Seven wasn't able to fix everything.



i thought they were pretty interesting and complex. would have liked more Maquis centered episodes. like an episode that would be a flashback to before the Maquis encountered Voyager.


What would the story be about?



You do have a point here. I would also have prferred more story arcs where certain events could have developed through some episodes. Therefore I liked the Kazon arc in season 2 where Jonas were revealed as a traitor.

Many times it was simply too much of:
Maquis unhappy with being on ship-Wham-bam solved!

Torres have lousy attitude-Wham-bam-fixed.

Kes and Neelix break up-Wham-bam-broken up (and the couldn't create a decent break up either).

I also agree that there were too much of Super-Seven saves the day, I mean she could actually bring back people to life after they had died too.

Now this really pisses me off.

Neelix didn't recover from his break up with Kes until early to mid Season 4. The Maquis finally stopped bitching about Janeway and Starfleet for good around the time when Seska and the Kazon took over the ship . . . in late Season 2. It took B'Elanna nearly most of Season 5 to get over her depression and grief over the Maquis' demise. And Super Seven didn't save the day that much. She did a lot in early Season 4. After that, she caused a lot of trouble. Jesus! Talk about exaggeration.
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Old July 17 2009, 05:39 AM   #11
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

a big *sigh* at the previous post
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Old July 17 2009, 06:43 AM   #12
Tachyon
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

Faces may have had more impact, if aired a little later. But it worked fine in season 1 as well.
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Old July 17 2009, 04:52 PM   #13
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

Arcs like the one with the Kazon just would and did not work. It was beyond implausible that they were in Kazon space for two years. Bloody hell, the people from DS9 can get to Romulus in a week, are we saying that Kazon space is hundreds of times bigger than the Federation??
Well maybe using that example isn't very good, we all know that within federation space ships seem to be accelerated somehow...

As for the arc question, I don't think we needed arcs and for every story to take 3 episodes. We just needed excellent continuity and a lot of supporting characters (they should have been a family but it never really felt that way). I was happy with having a lot of standalone episodes although I do admit a nice 3 parter would have been good too. Overall though I think we just needed more continuity, Enterprise was pretty decent with continuity for an adventure of the week show.

and

Fish1941 wrote: View Post
Neelix didn't recover from his break up with Kes until early to mid Season 4. The Maquis finally stopped bitching about Janeway and Starfleet for good around the time when Seska and the Kazon took over the ship . . . in late Season 2. It took B'Elanna nearly most of Season 5 to get over her depression and grief over the Maquis' demise.
Where we watching the same show?
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Old July 17 2009, 05:03 PM   #14
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

The kazon thing would not have been so much of a logic problem if they had thrown one line in there. That they are not in actual kazon space, but that a few of their tribes abandoned "their" space to prey on Voyager's super advanced tech to become the new über-honcho in the quadrant.
Over time they could have lost more and more of them until only the Nistrim were left and finally defeated.
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Old July 17 2009, 05:28 PM   #15
Lynx
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Re: Did Voyager throw out too much too soon?

I can agree on the criticizm about the Kazon arc, not the arc itself but the fact that it took them almost two years to get out of Kazon space.

If you look a t a map over the area, it actually looks like Voyager is traveling in a long corridor between Kazon and Vidiian territory, a corridor inhabited by minor races, such as the Mokra, the Sikaris, the Talaxians, the humans on "the 37's planet" and so on. Not to mention that they still face the Nistrim more than a year since they did run into them for the first time. A bit unrealistic to say the least.

What they should have done to make this mor erealistic was to strand them on "the 37's planet" for a while. We could have had a couple of episodes where they helped tyhe people there to defend themselves against the Kazon and the Vidiians and some of the season 2 episodes could have taken place then.

Otherwise I liked the Kazon arc, some really good episodes and ideas there. Not to mention that Seska and Culluh were great villains.
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