RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,700
Posts: 5,431,448
Members: 24,832
Currently online: 454
Newest member: eltonlight


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

View Poll Results: Was there ever a timeline where John Connor was not fathered by Reese?
Yes. John Connor cannot independently create himself. He had to come from somewhere. 18 20.93%
No. The first film is a closed loop predestination paradox. 68 79.07%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 6 2009, 09:09 PM   #91
Ryan
Commodore
 
Location: Lincoln, NE
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

It's during Reese's police interrogation.

Dr. Silberman: So why go through all this trouble with time travel? Why not just kill Connor in the future?
Kyle Reese: It had no choice. Their defense grid was smashed. We’d won. Taking out Connor then would make no difference. Skynet had to wipe out his entire existence.
Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2009, 10:23 PM   #92
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

James Cameron kind of changed his own rules with T2 so there's alot of things that don't quite fit.

http://www.sydfield.com/featured_jamescameron2.htm

"Basically, what I wanted to say in Terminator 2 was that everything is meant to be a certain way, everything has already been written. You can call it karma or destiny, whatever.
So I asked myself a hypothetical question: what if you could you grab a line of history like it's a rope stretched between two points, and just pull it out of the way? If you can pull it just a little bit out of the way then cut it at that moment, maybe you could change it and history could go in a slightly different direction. Like the catastrophe theory. If you could actually do that you would get a future that no longer exists except in the memories of the people who are here now. They have a memory of a future that will never happen, which is curious, because it defies our Newtonian view of the world. But couldn't it be possible?
That became my point of departure. It's like the Terminator is an anomaly of our time because he's the only one who has memories of a time that will never exist. His particular future does not exist anymore.
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 6 2009, 10:32 PM   #93
xman
Commander
 
xman's Avatar
 
Location: Lotus Land, eh
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Ryan wrote: View Post
It's during Reese's police interrogation.

Dr. Silberman: So why go through all this trouble with time travel? Why not just kill Connor in the future?
Kyle Reese: It had no choice. Their defense grid was smashed. We’d won. Taking out Connor then would make no difference. Skynet had to wipe out his entire existence.
This is not necessarily contradictory to my suggestion. And the previous post also supports my interpretation of events, but that's concerning T2? Anyhow ... "...the future is NOT set." I'm sticking to that until I see something more definitive.

X
__________________
He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot. ~ Douglas Adams
xman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2009, 04:32 AM   #94
Ryan
Commodore
 
Location: Lincoln, NE
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

xman wrote: View Post
Ryan wrote: View Post
It's during Reese's police interrogation.

Dr. Silberman: So why go through all this trouble with time travel? Why not just kill Connor in the future?
Kyle Reese: It had no choice. Their defense grid was smashed. We’d won. Taking out Connor then would make no difference. Skynet had to wipe out his entire existence.
This is not necessarily contradictory to my suggestion.
Reese also said only he and the terminator went back and the time displacement chamber would be blown after he went through. Seriously, rewatch T1. The interrogation scene blows your entire hypothesis out of the water.
Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2009, 10:00 AM   #95
Checkmate
Commodore
 
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Of course there was a timeline without John Connor. His father was from the friggin' future. You can't be the same person if half of your DNA is coming from someone else.

Hell, there's not even a guarantee that the creation of the first John Connor, or the first time jump, had anything to do with a Skynet or future war. Anything could have sparked it off.

For example, maybe the scientist who created the first time machine goes back in time and tries to make himself rich/speed up technological advancement by introducing futuretech... which, eventually, creates Skynet. Then in that altered timeline, humanity discovers that their losing and come across/invent time travel and use it with some guy named Kyle Reese going back to try and stop Skynet's creation. In the process, he bangs some hot waitress chick who ends up giving birth to the first John Connor. The future arrives, Connor leads the human rebellion, time travel is discovered again and Connor sends back the guy he realizes is his father to try and stop it again/give birth to him. Skynet finds out about it and sends a Terminator. Reese defeats the Terminator, bangs the waitress, Connor leads humanity, but this time Skynet discovers time travel first and sends a Terminator back to try and kill Connor. Connor finds out, sends his father back, and the loop we see in the first movie is created.

Or any other countless possibilities. There's no way it could have started all on its own. If Sarah did pop out a kid and happened to name him John, that still wouldn't have been the John Connor we saw. Even if he did end up leading humanity against Skynet. The paradox required Reese to be the father and Sarah to be the mother.
Checkmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8 2009, 12:41 AM   #96
xman
Commander
 
xman's Avatar
 
Location: Lotus Land, eh
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Ryan wrote: View Post
Reese also said only he and the terminator went back and the time displacement chamber would be blown after he went through. Seriously, rewatch T1. The interrogation scene blows your entire hypothesis out of the water.
Not out of the water, just altered. So we can either assume that the chamber was not blown after Kyle went through or, more likely another was built. I'm sure watching T2 would clear that up, but that takes us away from looking at T1 as a stand alone story. Anyway. I rewatched T1 and it does throw deep doubts on some of my speculations, but strongly supports my core premise.

Shortly after Kyle saves Sarah from the Terminator the first time in the club:
Sarah: Then you're saying it's from the future?
Kyle: One possible future, from your point of view. I don't know tech stuff.
From the police interrogation scene:
Kyle: It had no choice. Their defense grid was smashed. We'd won. Taking out Connor then would make no difference. Skynet had to wipe out his entire existence.
Silberman: Is that when you captured the lab complex and found that, what was it called? ... uh, the time displacement equipment?
Kyle: That's right. The Terminator had already gone through. Connor sent me to intercept and they blew the whole place.
Silberman: How are you supposed to get back
Kyle: I can't nobody goes home. Nobody else comes through. It's just him and me.
Nothing there contradicts a mutable timeline.

And even from a deleted scene before the night in the motel where sarah is trying to convince Kyle to help her destroy Cyberdine Systems:
Sarah: Well, we can change it Kyle. We have to at least try. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves. We have to at least try. What do you say, kiddo?
Kyle: Okay.
For those who don't know, I'm a professional actor. We have a saying in the theatre. 'If it's not on the page, it's not on the stage'.

I must still conclude that the future is mutable or that multiple timelines are possible in T1 alone.

X
__________________
He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot. ~ Douglas Adams
xman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8 2009, 07:33 AM   #97
Checkmate
Commodore
 
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Yeah. All that means is in that particular incarnation of the loop, it was just the two of them because the time machine was destroyed. But we know for a fact that this is changed by the events in that loop, else T2, T3, the series, etc. wouldn't exist.

Not the best argument in the world considering we already know things change.
Checkmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2009, 03:19 AM   #98
The Borgified Corpse
Admiral
 
The Borgified Corpse's Avatar
 
Location: Ouch! Forgotten already? You were just down there 20 minutes ago.
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

xman wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
It was a lie, a white lie ...
Evidenced by ... ?
Well, by the fact that, despite all of Kyle Reese's talk about how the timeline might change, everything we see in the movie ultimately creates the future that Kyle Reese describes rather than changing it. Sarah Connor survives, John Connor is conceived, the little Mexican kid takes the exact photo of Sarah that Kyle Reese had in the future, and one of the deleted scenes shows that the T-800 very well may have given Cyberdine Systems the idea to create Skynet in the first place. What we are shown of a predestination theory of time travel is far more compelling than what Kyle Reese tells us of the possibilities of changing the future.

But then, like I've said before, while the (first) movie demonstrates a predestination theory of time travel, there's probably no way of knowing that those are the time travel rules that apply to the universe until you actually try to break them. While changing the past may be physically impossible, the possibility was at least theoretically plausible enough that Skynet thought it was worth a try. And if Skynet thought it was possible, it makes sense that Kyle Reese & John Connor would consider it possible too, even if it really wasn't.
__________________
Kegg: "You're a Trekkie. The capacity to quibble over the minutiae of space opera films is your birthright."
The Borgified Corpse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2009, 04:38 AM   #99
The Borgified Corpse
Admiral
 
The Borgified Corpse's Avatar
 
Location: Ouch! Forgotten already? You were just down there 20 minutes ago.
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
The Many Worlds Interpretation Does Not Apply to Macroscopic Time Travel Effects
The Many Worlds Interpretation is very specific in its meaning and application. It only applies to probabilistic quantum wavefunctions, such as radioactive decay and the trajectory of a photon. It does not apply to macroscopic events, except in when macroscopic events are incluenced by probabilistic quantum events, which is rarely.
In the case of time travel, the probabilistic wavefunction is the "light cone" of the time traveler, the exact position and trajectory at which he enters the past. The Many World Interpretation that for every position and trajectory in the light-cone there is a universe in which the time traveler came into the past at that point with that trajectory. However, each of these worlds is entirely self-consistent, with the time-travel effects both pre-written and unalterable.

The self-consistency principle further limits the potential light cone of a time traveler because it cannot create inconsistent macroscopic effects, which means that Reese must be in a position to rescue and impregnate Sarah Connor in every world, the light-cone simply does not extend to positions where he cannot do so.
Interesting. I'm not sure I understand all of that. Let me see if I've got it kinda right.

So you're saying that quantum probability only applies to very small sub-atomic/photonic events. Meanwhile, larger stuff like me eating a cheeseburger tonight, a meteor impacting the Earth, or Kyle Reese impregnating Sarah Connor can only occur one way and occurs the same way even in all of the small, variated universes that might be created by the different outcomes occurring on the quantum level. Am I on the right track here?

What about totally independent parallel universes slowly branching off through small different outcomes? In essence, could the Mirror Universe from Star Trek exist parallel to our own, even if it is inaccessible to us? Or is that just wild fantasy?

T2 attempts to shed a ray of rope without being too specific, while T3, TS, and T:SCC are all totally incompatible with real time travel physics.
Agreed. Although the tone of T2 is generally optimistic, there is some ambiguity there and we never learn for certain (within the confines of T2) whether Sarah, John, & the T-800 were successful in changing the future or if Miles Dyson's lab was always meant to be destroyed. (Although we wouldn't have this ambiguity to argue over had James Cameron included the deleted future coda ending.)

As for T3, I think that the only real tripping point here is that T2 gave a date for Judgment Day in 1997 and Jonathan Mostow was making a new Terminator movie in 2003. Time warping was the only excuse they could come up with to explain why Judgment Day was now occurring in 2004 instead of 1997 like they had said in the previous film. Had T2 not given an exact date or given a later date or had T3 been made 6 years earlier, we wouldn't have this problem. The changes in the timeline in T3 were the results of production realities, not well thought out story decisions. (With a little grout & spackle, I think we can smooth right over it.)

Terminator Salvation tries to remain somewhat agnostic. It doesn't muck up the timeline any more than T3 already did. It also refrains from giving an exact date to Judgment Day, merely saying "the early 21st century." This way, you can assume Judgment Day occurred in 2004 (concurring with T3), 2011 (concurring with The Sarah Connor Chronicles), or any other date you like between now & 2018 when the movie takes place. Furthermore...
I guess my point is that, so long as we can smooth over the few date inconsistencies between T2 & T3, Terminator Salvation fits in perfectly with our immutable timeline started in The Terminator.

The Sarah Connor Chronicles doesn't fit in at all but it was never meant to. The writers seemed to go out of their way to invalidate as much of T3 as possible. Plus, that show just enjoys warping shit and making things complicated.

xman wrote: View Post
Arrghman wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post
If changes made in the past do not effect the future then time travel creates a new world line and the effects of the past are unobserved in the original. If that's the case, then we're back to the first question, "Why would Skynet bother sending the T-800 back at all since it will not change their reality"?
Because maybe Skynet thought that it could change the past. It simply turned out to be wrong. After all, it had lost the war so it seems to me that the time travel was a last ditch gambit on it's part. Why must we assume that Skynet had all the answers?
Very true, yes, but from a storytelling standpoint (and that's what were really talking about) that's a lame answer. It says to the audience that we shouldn't care what happens to Sarah and John because it doesn't matter, nothing can change. The implication is that we are fools for caring.
We wouldn't be fools for caring. We still have free will, which is the purpose of living. It's just that, whatever our intentions, the ultimate outcome must occur. Whether you do something or do nothing, the end result of that action or inaction is what causes what already happened to happen, although you often may not know HOW it happened.
__________________
Kegg: "You're a Trekkie. The capacity to quibble over the minutiae of space opera films is your birthright."
The Borgified Corpse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2009, 06:44 AM   #100
hyzmarca
Fleet Captain
 
hyzmarca's Avatar
 
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
The Many Worlds Interpretation Does Not Apply to Macroscopic Time Travel Effects
The Many Worlds Interpretation is very specific in its meaning and application. It only applies to probabilistic quantum wavefunctions, such as radioactive decay and the trajectory of a photon. It does not apply to macroscopic events, except in when macroscopic events are incluenced by probabilistic quantum events, which is rarely.
In the case of time travel, the probabilistic wavefunction is the "light cone" of the time traveler, the exact position and trajectory at which he enters the past. The Many World Interpretation that for every position and trajectory in the light-cone there is a universe in which the time traveler came into the past at that point with that trajectory. However, each of these worlds is entirely self-consistent, with the time-travel effects both pre-written and unalterable.

The self-consistency principle further limits the potential light cone of a time traveler because it cannot create inconsistent macroscopic effects, which means that Reese must be in a position to rescue and impregnate Sarah Connor in every world, the light-cone simply does not extend to positions where he cannot do so.
Interesting. I'm not sure I understand all of that. Let me see if I've got it kinda right.

So you're saying that quantum probability only applies to very small sub-atomic/photonic events. Meanwhile, larger stuff like me eating a cheeseburger tonight, a meteor impacting the Earth, or Kyle Reese impregnating Sarah Connor can only occur one way and occurs the same way even in all of the small, variated universes that might be created by the different outcomes occurring on the quantum level. Am I on the right track here?
Not exactly. The Many Worlds interpretation denies the reality of waveform collapse and replaces it with the mechanism of decoherence. Take the Schrodinger's cat thought experiment, in which a poison will kill a cat based on the state of a quantum probabilistic event. Without the MWI, the cat is said to be alive and dead simultaneously until waveform collapse. In MWI, it is said to remain simultaneously alive and dead after decoherence, we just only interact with one state or the other.

In regards to time travel and consistency, the best example is the billiard ball through a wormhole example. Lets say we have a lone billiard ball sitting on a pool table and a wormhole opens up for no apparent reason. Out of this wormhole comes the billiard ball's future self, which strikes it causing it to fall into the wormhole and strike itself in the past.

When the wormhole opens up initially, there are an infinite number of trajectories that the future billiard ball could have when it comes out, and an infinite number of trajectories would allow it to hit it's past self into the wormhole in such a way as to create a stable loop. The Many Worlds Interpretation says that each of those probable trajectories for the future billiard ball continue to exist side-by-side after decoherence.

The important thing is that decoherence occurs when the ball comes out of the wormhole in the past, not when it enters the wormhole in the future.

This means that there are an infinite number of ways that the time travel incident could play out. All of these ways exist simultaneously, and all are self-consistent and none interact with any of the others. You can't create a new worldline by going back in time because the decoherence caused by your appearing in the past has already occurred. The new worldlines already exist, you're just unaware of them.

In the case of T1, there are an infinite number of self-consistent ways that the time travel could have resolved itself. Most of these would likely involve Reese impregnating Sarah, probably all of them, though the details could be wildly different. There could, for example, be a timeline in which Kyle survives and raised John with Sarah. There could even be one where Kyle isn't John's father. But, and this is a big but, we didn't see any of those other timelines. There might even be a timeline in which no one time travels at all, but that can't be said to the the original timeline, because no one from it's future ever steps into a time machine.

When most people try to use Many Worlds to reconcile time travel, they make the mistake of thinking in hypertime. They reason that traveler from A goes back and caused B to branch off, and continues on in B. There is no hypertime.

What happens is that a time bubble appears in 1984, at some spot. The exact spot where the bubble will appear is determined by quantum probability, though self-consistency demands that it appear close enough to Sarah Connor for the time traveler to rescue her from the Terminator (whose on time bubble has already appeared at a spot also determined by quantum probability). For every possible spot that the time bubble could appear, a timeline comes into being and a traveler from that timeline's future comes through. Most of those are Kyle Reese, probably all, though some may not be, and all are playing their part in a self-consistent predestination paradox. Some of futures are similar to the one we know, others may be radically different. This doesn't matter, because all these timelines are segregated from each other by quantum decoherence, and time travelers from one are not crossing over into another. Each has it's own self-consistent timeloop, determined by where the time bubble appeared when it came into existence in 1984, with was determined by quantum probability.

The key is that although the timeliness do not have to be the same, they don't have to be even remotely similar, they must all be self-consistent.

What about totally independent parallel universes slowly branching off through small different outcomes? In essence, could the Mirror Universe from Star Trek exist parallel to our own, even if it is inaccessible to us? Or is that just wild fantasy?
That's pretty much what the MWI is about, though it isn't exactly parallel universes. The MWI describes a quantum superposition of states that always exists, it's just that deconherence only allows us to be aware of one. It's all one universe, with all the same matter and energy, just in a different state.

Exactly how much these states can diverge is a rather important question, and one that is up in the air. Quantum probabilities are additive, which suggests infinite potential divergence on a quantum level. However, most probabilistic quantum events have little effect on the macroscopic world, and they tend to occur in such great numbers that they all even out.
It is unknown exactly what effects quantum events have on human thought processes. It could be significant, or it could be none at all. If probabilistic quantum events did effect human thoughts and decision making in a significant manner, then thus would eventually lead to extreme divergence, possibily of the mirror universe type.
hyzmarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2009, 02:22 PM   #101
3D Master
Rear Admiral
 
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Cky wrote: View Post
The real question is, after failing to kill Sarah Connor in the first film, why didn't they send the T-1000 back in time a day before the T-800 arrived, and suprise her all over again? Better yet, go back and kill her parents.
In the unfilmed opening scene of T2, we find that the T-800 and the T-1000 were sent back at the same time. Skynet is defeated; and its last ditch effort it sends two Terminators back through time.
3D Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 07:18 PM   #102
Model_108
Cadet
 
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
the T2 novel actually features a bit of narrative where John can't remember anything past seeing the table with 'no fate' carved in it.
Exactly. After the Adult John sends his father Reese back, he goes looking for a specific model terminator to send back. The one that he remembered protected him as a child (The Arnold model). I've always believed that everything before Sarah's dream at Salceda's was part of the loop. Meaning that originally Sarah, John and T-800 went south into hiding instead of blowing up Cyberdyne. Dyson builds the chip, JD happens, John grows up to become leader and so forth. But in the movie, the loop is disrupted after Sarah's dream and from that point on the characters begin changing events.
Model_108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 09:34 PM   #103
Checkmate
Commodore
 
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

The first incarnation of Connor (not necessarily John Connor or Kyle's son) sending Kyle back in time had quickly taught us that events could change... because that moment created the loop. If a loop can be created, events can obviously be altered. If they couldn't be altered, there'd be no way for a loop to be created and time travel itself would be completely and utterly pointless. Which it isn't. Which is why Skynet sent the first Terminator back and why the first not-the-same-John-Connor sent Kyle back.
Checkmate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2009, 11:50 PM   #104
kipron
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Australia
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Based on the first movie alone, seems like a closed loop, but not sure what the *different* situation would have been to create the first itteration of that loop.
There was no "first" iteration.
__________________
This is bigger than us. This is life.
kipron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2009, 01:06 AM   #105
Scout101
Admiral
 
Scout101's Avatar
 
Location: Rhode Island, USA
Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Don't feel like having that argument for another go around, so we'll just agree to disagree. My theory works with the franchise, whereas your theory only 'mostly' works with just the first movie (some things contradict it), so take that how you will...

The "random shit appears in the past, if you intend to create the cause later on" theory of time travel worked for Bill and Ted, but looks silly elsewhere (and honestly didn't even work there)
__________________
Perhaps, if I am very lucky, the feeble efforts of my lifetime will someday be noticed and maybe, in some small way, they will be acknowledged as the greatest works of genius ever created by man. ~Jack Handey
STO: @JScout33
Scout101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
kyle reese, terminator

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:07 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.