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View Poll Results: Was there ever a timeline where John Connor was not fathered by Reese?
Yes. John Connor cannot independently create himself. He had to come from somewhere. 18 20.93%
No. The first film is a closed loop predestination paradox. 68 79.07%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 5 2009, 03:18 AM   #76
Ryan
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

xman wrote: View Post
The photo simply reveals that Kyle who was from the future, had some accurate knowledge of the past, much of which, but not all, will repeat.
The photo shows the events of T1 had been played out before Reese or the terminator even went back.
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Old June 5 2009, 05:07 AM   #77
xman
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Ryan wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post
The photo simply reveals that Kyle who was from the future, had some accurate knowledge of the past, much of which, but not all, will repeat.
The photo shows the events of T1 had been played out before Reese or the terminator even went back.
Not necessarily. Sarah could have been heading through Mexico for completely different reasons the first time when John's father was some 80's clubber who slept with Sarah instead of Kyle.

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Old June 5 2009, 07:44 AM   #78
Ryan
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

I don't think an 18-year old waitress is going to buy a mean dog and run off to South America because of 80s club guy.
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Old June 5 2009, 03:56 PM   #79
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

xman wrote: View Post

Time is mutable. Time travel is possible. Novikov be damned, this is fiction.

X
And in this fictional universe, within the limits of the first film it's not - John exists because he's always existed, nothing has been changed.
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Old June 5 2009, 05:09 PM   #80
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Maybe it's all just a case of multiple alternate future timelines fighting amongst themselves to become the "Prime" future timeline and thus end up eventually becoming the Present.

In the "original" future timeline that's destined to become the Present, the events of Terminator never happen, John Connor is never born, J-Day happens, the Human Resistance does whatever it'll end up doing and will probably end up losing, in the most likely future that's destined to happen.

The T-800 comes from an alternate future where the events of Terminator already happened, and by killing Sarah Connor, ends up with a Present where John Connor was never born. Except it lost to a second alternate future timeline, and we have a Present where John Connor is alive and well, and now the most probable future timeline that's destined to become the Present is where John is the leader of the Human Resistance.

Kyle Reese comes from a second alternate future timeline where the events of Terminator already happened, but succeeded in making his future timeline end up as the Present where he's John's father.

Last edited by Da'an; June 5 2009 at 05:19 PM.
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Old June 5 2009, 08:41 PM   #81
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post

Time is mutable. Time travel is possible. Novikov be damned, this is fiction.

X
And in this fictional universe, within the limits of the first film it's not - John exists because he's always existed, nothing has been changed.
hm ... and John Connor's message to Sarah that "The future is not set" should be disregarded, how?

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Old June 6 2009, 12:23 AM   #82
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

It was a lie, a white lie meant to inspire both Sarah and Kyle, and most likely one that he told because Sarah told him that that's what he told Kyle to tell her.
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Old June 6 2009, 01:39 AM   #83
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
It was a lie, a white lie ...
Evidenced by ... ?
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Old June 6 2009, 04:49 AM   #84
Ryan
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

xman wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
It was a lie, a white lie ...
Evidenced by ... ?
Because John couldn't possibly know if Judgment Day is preventable from a position where it's already (and always has) happened.

He's just repeating what he was told by his mother. Connor knows full well how it's already played out. It's the entire reason he gives Reese the photo of Sarah (why give a random teenage kid a picture of your mother?).
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Old June 6 2009, 05:42 AM   #85
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Ryan wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
It was a lie, a white lie ...
Evidenced by ... ?
Because John couldn't possibly know if Judgment Day is preventable from a position where it's already (and always has) happened.

He's just repeating what he was told by his mother. Connor knows full well how it's already played out. It's the entire reason he gives Reese the photo of Sarah (why give a random teenage kid a picture of your mother?).
NOT a "random" kid and that might make sense, BUT it's not evidence. It's an unsupported postulation. AND he could very easily know that JD is preventable by the different future time travelers that make it back to his time from differing futures. That too is an unsupported postulation.

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Old June 6 2009, 06:59 AM   #86
Ryan
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

xman wrote: View Post
AND he could very easily know that JD is preventable by the different future time travelers that make it back to his time from differing futures.
That doesn't even make sense.
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Old June 6 2009, 07:03 AM   #87
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Ryan wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post
AND he could very easily know that JD is preventable by the different future time travelers that make it back to his time from differing futures.
That doesn't even make sense.
Especially since in the first film, that doesn't even happen.
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Old June 6 2009, 08:33 AM   #88
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Ryan wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post
AND he could very easily know that JD is preventable by the different future time travelers that make it back to his time from differing futures.
That doesn't even make sense.
Especially since in the first film, that doesn't even happen.
It doesn't happen anywhere, but if you stop to think about it it makes more sense than, "John lied". Skynet would first send information at least if not an agent back to John Connor's time of The Resistance to tell its past self that General Connor will imminently defeat itself and that he must be removed. Cue the hybrid. Only when that fails will they go back to remove his mother. There is greater danger to altering the time line too much even at this point and especially beyond. Disregarding this, my own unsubstantiated theory, there is nothing which leads us to assume that John lied to Kyle and thus to Sarah. In fact the report from the T-850 informs John and us that Sarah and John were successful (if only partly) in changing the future when they stopped Skynet in the 90's. Is Kate lying now? How many lies must be told to support this very thin notion that time is immutable, something that all movies and the TV series have stated and demonstrated to be true? But wait, we're only dealing with the intention of T1 before it got corrupted by T2-T4. So what do we have to go on? The facts of T1. You may choose to disbelieve John, but in truth you have no reason to except to validate some pet theory about how time travel 'really' works. Well, it doesn't 'really' happen and it is extremely! unlikely to ever even be possible so let's discard that and deal with the story as it has been told:

"Thank you, Sarah, for your courage through the dark years. I can't help you with what you must soon face, except to say that the future is not set. You must be stronger than you imagine you can be. You must survive, or I will never exist."

X
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Last edited by xman; June 6 2009 at 08:48 AM.
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Old June 6 2009, 06:06 PM   #89
Ryan
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

xman wrote: View Post
Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Ryan wrote: View Post
That doesn't even make sense.
Especially since in the first film, that doesn't even happen.
It doesn't happen anywhere, but if you stop to think about it it makes more sense than, "John lied".
Remember, the other part of that speech is Connor trying to preserve himself. "You must survive, or I will never exist." That he would try to give Sarah hope and strength for the horror to come isn't exactly a surprise.

Whether John was fulfilling history, just repeating what his mother always told him, telling Sarah (and Reese) a lie to keep her alive, or simply wrong is inconsequential. The speech is really for the audience. There's no tension if we don't think the terminator can actually succeed. A more accurate message like "Sarah, you will survive so don't worry" would pretty much ruin the film.

Skynet would first send information at least if not an agent back to John Connor's time of The Resistance to tell its past self that General Connor will imminently defeat itself and that he must be removed.
The movie has dialog discussing and dismissing that.

In fact the report from the T-850 informs John and us that Sarah and John were successful (if only partly) in changing the future when they stopped Skynet in the 90's.
Thematically the Terminator films all take different approaches to time travel. T1 is a closed loop predestination paradox, T2 is "no fate", and T3 is "Judgment Day is inevitable".

I usually look at the first film as a stand alone but even if we do include the sequels there's nothing to suggest Judgment Day can be avoided (as it's always happened in every one; no one would even be traveling back if it didn't). T3 in fact says it's unavoidable.

But wait, we're only dealing with the intention of T1 before it got corrupted by T2-T4. So what do we have to go on? The facts of T1. You may choose to disbelieve John, but in truth you have no reason to except to validate some pet theory about how time travel 'really' works.
hyzmarca was the one saying that. I defintely never claimed to know how time travel "really" works. In fact, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work at all.

That doesn't mean the predestination theme in T1 isn't very clear. There's a reason they make a point of showing the photo of Sarah in 1984 and Reese with it in ~2029. To ignore that you have to make up several time lines that existed before T1 and aren't even hinted at in the movie.
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Old June 6 2009, 07:06 PM   #90
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Re: John Connor's existence POLL

Ryan wrote: View Post
The movie has dialog discussing and dismissing that.
Well throw me a bone here what is it and where in the movie?
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