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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 22 2009, 04:48 PM   #31
GalaxyX
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Oh, come on. Of all the things to complain about, this is probably the dumbest. That is one of those things you just have to run with. Chris Pine looks NOTHING like William Shatner, yet he is meant to be young Kirk and is even recognized by Old Spock. Yet, no one complained about that in Trek XI.
I accepted Chris Pine as Kirk because:

a. He wasn't supposed to be a 100% representation of the Kirk from TOS, more like a capture of the main points about the character. In Nemesis, Shinzon IS supposed to be 100% Picard, only younger.

b. Chris Pine actually did a good job with the role. I honestly thought I was going to hate his portrayal, and while not perfect, it captured enough essence of the character to be likeable. Like I said in another thread, he captured "Kirk" without getting trapped in imitating "Shatner".

Shinzon(Tom Hardy) on the other hand, tried to play the role as a moody, dark character, and only managed to seem a whiny teenage brat. If they WANTED to insist on the same story, I would have at least showed some aging progression on Tom Hardy, perhaps some prosthetics? And at the end of the movie, I would have had Patrick Stewart play and aged Shinzon and that "this" Shinzon be the one that fights Picard.

But hey, that's me. Data still died, so I can't forgive the movie.
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Old May 22 2009, 04:55 PM   #32
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
Schinzon's head looked pretty obviously shaved. I just assumed that the character shaved it to psych Picard out. And there is nothing ruling out that Picard shaved his head earlier in life. Maybe he shaved it during cross-country season. As established in BoBW, Picard was a runner, and many runners seem to do that. The showing of that picture was probably done to further the connection for the viewing audience and, again, this is one of those things that you just have to run with.
Sounds like you have no problem with those "imagination holes".
Haha...touche. I guess my point on that is Shizon being bald (and a picture of young Picard being bald) seems like such a minor quibble compared to other things that can be legitimate complaints.

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
a. He wasn't supposed to be a 100% representation of the Kirk from TOS, more like a capture of the main points about the character. In Nemesis, Shinzon IS supposed to be 100% Picard, only younger.
Did we see the same movie. One of the major points of the film was how the same person could go down radically different paths. Shizon was not supposed to be a 100% representation of Picard. More of a twisted mirror version of him.
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Old May 22 2009, 11:13 PM   #33
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
In Nemesis, Shinzon IS supposed to be 100% Picard, only younger.

If you thought that, then you completely misunderstood one of the key points of the film, which was spelled out quite clearly in a discussion between Data and Picard.
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Old May 23 2009, 01:26 AM   #34
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Life goes on. Styles change. Tastes change. Technology improves.

Yet none of this was allowed to affect Berman's idea of Gene Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek. The problem with NEM isn't that it was a BAD movie. It was... mediocre.

Berman's Trek was allowed to stagnate. It was more of the SAME Trek we'd been getting for 16+ years at that point. THAT is probably it's worst sin. We were being treated by some incredible movies like LOTR and such and dazzled with incredible production values in other genre flicks. But Trek had the same tired look, feel, story and production values.
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Old May 23 2009, 01:55 AM   #35
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

As others have said, NEM had a lot of flaws. After I watched it a second time I didn't dislike it so much. But what pisses me off is the potential was there for something much better than what we got.

As for the timing, I'm not sure what CaptainJon was referring to. I know that the marketing for the film was horrible as was the release date. A better cross promotion/tie-in with ENT besides "Minefield" would've been sweet too.

TPTB really poured a lot of effort in promoting the new Trek film. With NEM they seemed to want to just wash their hands of the TNG movie franchise. It just helped add to the sense of fatigue this film was swimming in.
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Old May 23 2009, 05:15 AM   #36
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Orac Zen wrote: View Post
IMO? No, it's not really that bad. Incredibly enough, it's even worse.

NCC-1701-B wrote: View Post
Why is it bad? because it has a car at the beginning? I dont get why it is a bad film.
That's fine - to each their own, after all. But for mine, it's bad because of the following:
  • inane "car" chase through desert (so Picard can mimic Bond?) in the wake of gathering bits of yet another Data prototype. Yes, Data was more than just a toaster but how many damned prototypes are out there, anyway?
  • our crew - supposedly the best and brightest, given they've been on the Federation flagship all these years - ignore the precedent of Lore and activate the prototype anyway. Happily it turns out to be a dunce, but it could just as easily have been yet another Lore. No one seemed to consider this possibility.
  • Romulans "somehow" - "somehow" is all the explanation we're given - get a DNA sample from Picard.
  • Romulans create clone of Picard (a clone which, remarkably considering it's a frelling clone, looks nothing whatsoever like Picard) to...what, exactly?
  • Remans, despite being the underclass, repressed etc somehow - without their Romulan bretheren noticing - build a kickarse spaceship that makes the Federation flagship look like a shuttlecraft. Really, did no one notice this?
  • Data sacrifices himself in a manner which makes zero sense.
  • But because of the aforementioned prototype - to which Data conveniently transferred his consciousness before his noble sacrifice - Data's "death" is purely temporary. Although there will be no more TNG movies we know good and well that with just a bit of Federation TLC "B4" (such a witty name) will turn into the Data we know (and may love) in no time. So any emotional significance attached to Data's demise is completely wiped out about 10 minutes after we witnessed it.
The movie has other flaws. Those are merely the ones I can (unfortunately) recall at this distance. The idea of watching that trash again almost makes me gag. If others like it that's perfectly okay, but for mine it's among the worst movies I've seen. And "Copycat posting" () hasn't a thing to do with my ability to form my own opinion of this tripe.

Your reasons are some of the reasons I also dislike the movie. I have been able to watch it completely 2 times (including once in the theater). A third time I tried, and I couldn't make it past the introduction to Shinzon. Now, I can't even stomach half the movie before I turn it off. To me it's just so monumentally bad that I only own it as I'm a completist, and have to have an entire collection of something.

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Old May 23 2009, 07:12 AM   #37
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

donners22 wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
In Nemesis, Shinzon IS supposed to be 100% Picard, only younger.

If you thought that, then you completely misunderstood one of the key points of the film, which was spelled out quite clearly in a discussion between Data and Picard.
You mean the one where Picard said, "If Shinzon had led the exact same like I had, would he still be an angry little weiner?"

The correct answer, which Data failed to provide, is no. Shinzon's life is what made him who he was. If he had led Picard's life, he would have ended up like Picard.

That whole conversation between Picard and Data didn't make any sense.
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Old May 23 2009, 08:10 AM   #38
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

To me Nemesis was bad because it didn't feel like a Star Trek movie. It felt more like Paramount had a very mediocre idea for a movie and decided to slap Star Trek elements on it. It's almost like they knew if they slaped Star Trek on it they could sucker the fans into seeing it at least once in the theater and completest fans would buy it on home video whether they thought the movie sucked or not.



Note: This is just my opinion. I mean no disrespect to those who enjoy the film.
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Old May 23 2009, 09:37 AM   #39
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

captain crow wrote: View Post
To me Nemesis was bad because it didn't feel like a Star Trek movie. It felt more like Paramount had a very mediocre idea for a movie and decided to slap Star Trek elements on it. It's almost like they knew if they slaped Star Trek on it they could sucker the fans into seeing it at least once in the theater and completest fans would buy it on home video whether they thought the movie sucked or not.



Note: This is just my opinion. I mean no disrespect to those who enjoy the film.
Actually, that sounds much like the other 12-15% of the people on this board who didn't like the new Star Trek movie. I guess it's one of those generalities that can be used for any Star Trek movie, no offense to you intended, of course.

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Old May 23 2009, 10:35 AM   #40
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Oddly enough I didn't think the new movie was that bad, it reminds me of the Lost in Space movie. It tries to revamp the franchise by trying not to alienate the old fans too much while tryng to gain new fans. To me I-IX dispite all of their faults meant well, they all had a heart. With Nemesis it feels like Paramount new they had a crappy script laying around and thought "we haven't released a Trek film lately have we?". I get this odd vibe from the main cast that even they know it's a crappy film and they're not having any fun making it. All the acting in it is flat and unemotional.
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Old May 24 2009, 12:15 AM   #41
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

The plot was weak
The direction was weak
The characterization was weak

that's why ST V is the only star trek that is worse.
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Old May 24 2009, 12:25 AM   #42
GalaxyX
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Haha...touche. I guess my point on that is Shizon being bald (and a picture of young Picard being bald) seems like such a minor quibble compared to other things that can be legitimate complaints.
When a movie is good, I personally am willing to forget minor details they got wrong. If the rest of the movie is crap, then it's not so easy to forgive the minor stuff.

Did we see the same movie. One of the major points of the film was how the same person could go down radically different paths. Shizon was not supposed to be a 100% representation of Picard. More of a twisted mirror version of him.
I think my biggest problem with the whole thing is that it's not realistic to have a 17 year old bald kid passed on as supposed to be on the same caliber of intelligence and maturity as the real Patrick Stewart. It failed on every level possible. I've never seen Tom Hardy in anything else, and I don't know if he just can't act, or his lines were just so bad that he couldn't give them the proper feeling. He tries his hardest to do a Picard impression and it failed. Thinking about it right now, it would have been so simple to just have Patrick Stewart dub Tom Hardy's lines, so at least the character would SOUND like a young Patrick and not a 17 year old whiny brat. And the movie spent so much time and such buildup to introduce the character, when in the end the revelation of who he is is so completely undermined by inability of the actor to convincinly portray the role properly.

TPTB really poured a lot of effort in promoting the new Trek film. With NEM they seemed to want to just wash their hands of the TNG movie franchise. It just helped add to the sense of fatigue this film was swimming in.
Yes I agree. I remember the Simpson's parody when they did "Star Trek 12, so very tired". Funny it ended up being TNG and not TOS who that parody should have been pointed at.

Actually, that sounds much like the other 12-15% of the people on this board who didn't like the new Star Trek movie. I guess it's one of those generalities that can be used for any Star Trek movie, no offense to you intended, of course.

J.
I can understand the Star Trek purists when they have these sort of beefs. I guess I am not a Star Trek purist because I couldn't care less if there's inconsistencies as long as the movie is ENTERTAINING. The new Star Trek movie was entertaining. I agree that it's 70% not Star Trek, but the 30% Star Trek they left in is gold!!

Nemesis was easily 80% not TNG, and the 20% that was pretty much was the leftover crap from TNG, like watching one of the bad TNG episodes. And what's with this hardon to kill major characters anyway? First they kill Kirk, and then Data. What's the point?
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