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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 12 2009, 05:22 AM   #61
roguephoenix
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Re: Relativity 2.0

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
I don't think the Relativity saw the need to correct anything because the blackhole that Nero and Spock went through sent them not just into the past but into the past of a different timeline.

Here's a theory of mine from another thread:

Anything that can happen does happen in one reality or another. If I'm walking down a street and have to decide whether or not to take a left or a right, in one reality I go right and in another I go left. Different realities account for different decisions we make so there are several possible futures that could emerge from the present.

In this type of theory all futures branch out from a common past. The further we go into the future, the more realities diverge. The further we go into the past, the more realities converge. Prime Trek and New Trek both have ENT in common. If Prime Trek and New Trek have ENT in common, then ENT has at least two possible futures. 1986 has even more possible futures, so the crew in TVH were from one possible version of the 23rd Century while Star Trek (2009) is another version.

Where am I going with this?

I think Star Trek (2009) isn't just a different timeline where things were only changed becasue of Nero, I think it's a different timeline where things after 2233 unfolded differently in general. Chekov's parents have him sooner, the Enterprise is commissioned later, etc. The reason for Chekov's birth being sooner? They either met sooner or decided to have children sooner. The reason the Enterprise was commissioned later? The ship that would've been commissioned in 2245 was called something else instead and Pike was never in command of that ship or maybe he was and we didn't see it.

If I wanted to take it one step further, I could say that [Trek Prime] is a possible 23rd Century projected from 1966 where there are Eugenics Wars. [...] Star Trek (2009) is a 23rd Century projected from 2009 which was then [disrupted by Nero].

the only problem with the creation of alternate timelines is that there would be no need to correct much of anything since they are all alternate timelines. there really is no need for a time ship like relativity except for research missions. they wouldn't need to go back in time to try and correct stuff because that will just be an alternate timeline.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:24 AM   #62
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Re: Relativity 2.0

roguephoenix wrote: View Post
there really is no need for a time ship like relativity
Truer words were never spoken. I never thought the whole idea of a temporal agency made a lick of sense.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:25 AM   #63
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Re: Relativity 2.0

roguephoenix wrote: View Post
the only problem with the creation of alternate timelines is that there would be no need to correct much of anything since they are all alternate timelines. there really is no need for a time ship like relativity except for research missions. they wouldn't need to go back in time to try and correct stuff because that will just be an alternate timeline.
Unless they haven't figured out how to feasibly travel between realities in the 29th Century. In that case, once the Relativity's timeline is altered, they can't go back to their unaltered reality. They have no choice but to correct a tampered timeline because it's the only one they have access to.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:32 AM   #64
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Re: Relativity 2.0

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
roguephoenix wrote: View Post
the only problem with the creation of alternate timelines is that there would be no need to correct much of anything since they are all alternate timelines. there really is no need for a time ship like relativity except for research missions. they wouldn't need to go back in time to try and correct stuff because that will just be an alternate timeline.
Unless they haven't figured out how to feasibly travel between realities in the 29th Century. In that case, once the Relativity's timeline is altered, they can't go back to their unaltered reality. They have no choice but to correct a tampered timeline because it's the only one they have access to.
but in your explanation, every altering is just another alternate reality, so the fact that they've been able to alter things before, means they are able to travel between alternate realities. plus their goal is to prevent the timeline from being altered so knowing where the incursion occured, their goal will be to prevent the incident and restore the timeline. though by restore, it would be more like preventing the incident so that the incursion never happened therefore negating that alternate reality as it would have never happened. so, still following your alternate reality train of thought, if they went back to a point in time before the disruption occured, they wouldn't technically be on a different reality as that alternate has not been created yet, hence they would have no problem getting to it, if they indeed had a problem traveling to alternate realities.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:34 AM   #65
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Re: Relativity 2.0

Remember when Worf was bouncing around between different timelines and different versions of the Ent-D, and they got to see hundreds of thousands of Enterprises? In some, the Borg win and assimilate the Federation, etc.

Im sure theres a timeline where the Borg destroy the Phoenix and kill Cochrane and there was never a Federation to begin with. And lets not forget the one where Spock has a goatee and serves the evil Terran Empire.

Its one of many alternate timelines which Trek has already established as existing, and in this one, the Relativity & Co doesnt exist or somesuch.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:35 AM   #66
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Re: Relativity 2.0

In Trek XII I want the character of Daniels from ENT to just walk past in a crowded scene. That's it. That would be very cool.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:36 AM   #67
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Re: Relativity 2.0

Hyperspace05 wrote: View Post
Ugh... The less heard about the USS Relativity and such organizations, the better.

(One could make that argument for *every* single time travel use in Trek canon)
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teacake wrote: View Post
In Trek XII I want the character of Daniels from ENT to just walk past in a crowded scene. That's it. That would be very cool.
Like the Observer in "Fringe"
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Old May 12 2009, 05:36 AM   #68
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Re: Relativity 2.0

I loved Daniels; I could eat him with a spoon, without salt.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:37 AM   #69
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Re: Relativity 2.0

NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
roguephoenix wrote: View Post
there really is no need for a time ship like relativity
Truer words were never spoken. I never thought the whole idea of a temporal agency made a lick of sense.
i completely agree. the theory that every incident creates an alternate reality, there would be too much to calculate and anticipate in order to restore the timeline as is. even if they did manage to "restore" the timeline, it's not guaranteed that the events will be played out as they once did. they will never be done fixing that one timeline since they will have to make sure everything goes according to how it once did. they will not only have to monitor past, but also present and future. they will have to make sure that what is done in tha past does not affect the future adversely even though it "restores" the current timeline. the amount of decisions to make is outrageous.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:40 AM   #70
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Re: Relativity 2.0

Jeri wrote: View Post
I loved Daniels; I could eat him with a spoon, without salt.
My dear you have something on your chin..
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Old May 12 2009, 05:52 AM   #71
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Re: Relativity 2.0

If they wanted to do something with the "Relativity", they would have made a Voyager movie. But since that would have made about five hundred bucks world wide, they didn't.

Whole point of this movie is a fresh start for the franchise. No more eugenics wars. No more transphasic torpedoes, or temporal cold wars. New beginning.
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Old May 12 2009, 05:58 AM   #72
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Re: Relativity 2.0

Okay, after this, I'm done for the night. I need to go to bed.

roguephoenix wrote: View Post
Lord Garth wrote: View Post
roguephoenix wrote: View Post
the only problem with the creation of alternate timelines is that there would be no need to correct much of anything since they are all alternate timelines. there really is no need for a time ship like relativity except for research missions. they wouldn't need to go back in time to try and correct stuff because that will just be an alternate timeline.
Unless they haven't figured out how to feasibly travel between realities in the 29th Century. In that case, once the Relativity's timeline is altered, they can't go back to their unaltered reality. They have no choice but to correct a tampered timeline because it's the only one they have access to.
but in your explanation, every altering is just another alternate reality, so the fact that they've been able to alter things before, means they are able to travel between alternate realities. plus their goal is to prevent the timeline from being altered so knowing where the incursion occured, their goal will be to prevent the incident and restore the timeline. though by restore, it would be more like preventing the incident so that the incursion never happened therefore negating that alternate reality as it would have never happened. so, still following your alternate reality train of thought, if they went back to a point in time before the disruption occured, they wouldn't technically be on a different reality as that alternate has not been created yet, hence they would have no problem getting to it, if they indeed had a problem traveling to alternate realities.
I think the new Trek timeline no longer has anything in common with the old Trek timeline much earlier than 2233. Let's say these two timelines have everything in common up until the 1990s, as an example, and then they branch off from each other. In the Relativity's reality there were Eugenics Wars from 1992-1996. In the New Trek reality, everything up through at least 2009 occurs as we know it in real life. So the New Trek reality is a parallel universe like the Mirror Universe. It's entirely possible that the Mirror Universe also has a common past with the Prime Universe but naturally diverged, just to make up a number, four million years ago.

Maybe the Relativity doesn't need to be concerned about what Nero does in a parallel universe that was never intended to lead up their reality in the first place. In other words, 2233 in Star Trek was never the 2233 in the Relativity's universe and it would be impossible to reconcile the two universes. It's not just one or two things different about New Universe or one or two points that can be blamed for all the differences. There were differences that unfolded for several reasons going back several hundred years.

The Relativity might examine realities on a case by case basis. The degree of divergence might play a major factor. How fundamentally different is a reality from theirs? And are they dealing with an Altered Timeline or a Different Timeline?

An Altered Timeline would be something like "Yesterday's Enterprise" where one change due to a temporal anomoly alters everything else. A Different Timeline is a timeline where there are several differences which had nothing to do with any anomolies and have to do with how that timeline naturally developed. So Nero disrupted what was already a fundamentally differnet universe to begin with.

Because of the soft science with the black hole, Nero and Spock don't have to travel back in a straight line. They can go sideways in time instead of just back. They're going into a time/reality that Relativity might not even be aware of.
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Old May 12 2009, 06:03 AM   #73
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Re: Relativity 2.0

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
roguephoenix wrote: View Post
the only problem with the creation of alternate timelines is that there would be no need to correct much of anything since they are all alternate timelines. there really is no need for a time ship like relativity except for research missions. they wouldn't need to go back in time to try and correct stuff because that will just be an alternate timeline.
Unless they haven't figured out how to feasibly travel between realities in the 29th Century. In that case, once the Relativity's timeline is altered, they can't go back to their unaltered reality. They have no choice but to correct a tampered timeline because it's the only one they have access to.
Being a time-ship and all that, the Relativity must be protected from changes to the timeline.
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Old May 12 2009, 06:10 AM   #74
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Re: Relativity 2.0

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
Okay, after this, I'm done for the night. I need to go to bed.

roguephoenix wrote: View Post
Lord Garth wrote: View Post

Unless they haven't figured out how to feasibly travel between realities in the 29th Century. In that case, once the Relativity's timeline is altered, they can't go back to their unaltered reality. They have no choice but to correct a tampered timeline because it's the only one they have access to.
but in your explanation, every altering is just another alternate reality, so the fact that they've been able to alter things before, means they are able to travel between alternate realities. plus their goal is to prevent the timeline from being altered so knowing where the incursion occured, their goal will be to prevent the incident and restore the timeline. though by restore, it would be more like preventing the incident so that the incursion never happened therefore negating that alternate reality as it would have never happened. so, still following your alternate reality train of thought, if they went back to a point in time before the disruption occured, they wouldn't technically be on a different reality as that alternate has not been created yet, hence they would have no problem getting to it, if they indeed had a problem traveling to alternate realities.
I think the new Trek timeline no longer has anything in common with the old Trek timeline much earlier than 2233. Let's say these two timelines have everything in common up until the 1990s, as an example, and then they branch off from each other. In the Relativity's reality there were Eugenics Wars from 1992-1996. In the New Trek reality, everything up through at least 2009 occurs as we know it in real life. So the New Trek reality is a parallel universe like the Mirror Universe. It's entirely possible that the Mirror Universe also has a common past with the Prime Universe but naturally diverged, just to make up a number, four million years ago.

Maybe the Relativity doesn't need to be concerned about what Nero does in a parallel universe that was never intended to lead up their reality in the first place. In other words, 2233 in Star Trek was never the 2233 in the Relativity's universe and it would be impossible to reconcile the two universes. It's not just one or two things different about New Universe or one or two points that can be blamed for all the differences. There were differences that unfolded for several reasons going back several hundred years.

The Relativity might examine realities on a case by case basis. The degree of divergence might play a major factor. How fundamentally different is a reality from theirs? And are they dealing with an Altered Timeline or a Different Timeline?

An Altered Timeline would be something like "Yesterday's Enterprise" where one change due to a temporal anomoly alters everything else. A Different Timeline is a timeline where there are several differences which had nothing to do with any anomolies and have to do with how that timeline naturally developed. So Nero disrupted what was already a fundamentally differnet universe to begin with.

Because of the soft science with the black hole, Nero and Spock don't have to travel back in a straight line. They can go sideways in time instead of just back. They're going into a time/reality that Relativity might not even be aware of.
i can see that. however, isn't it within their jurisdiction people from their timeline go back and create alternate timelines? ones in which there's a lot of devastation that occurs? also, since they are a ship/agency that exists out of normal timespace, wouldn't any temporal incursion be within their jurisdiction?

what could also be is that because of this new timeline, the timespace where relativity and the "time cops" actually came from somehow benefits, i.e. a stronger vulcan-romulan relationship where romulans are actually in the federation or whatnot. one way to see it is that despite the suffering and devastation that occurs now, the future benefits that this incident will bear are far greater than what was lost.
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Old May 12 2009, 06:19 AM   #75
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Re: Relativity 2.0

teacake wrote: View Post
Jeri wrote: View Post
I loved Daniels; I could eat him with a spoon, without salt.
My dear you have something on your chin..
It will be gone in the blink of an eye, I assure you.
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