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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 13 2009, 08:36 PM   #1
cwl
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Reman Warbird Scimitar

undoubtedly the most badass Warbird ever seen.

but anyone thing this ship was a little contrived?

a secret Warbird built by a slave-race on a secret base in the Romulan Empire. the ship being the size of a Romulan Warbird if not bigger.

the ship has dual-shielding, 20-somthing torpedo launchers & 50-something disruptors. it has a perfect cloak & can fire weapons whilst cloaked. the ship can also outrun a Sovereign-class starship.

basically this is leagues ahead of anything the Romulans or starfleet have.

do you think it would be possible to build such a ship in secret?
discuss.
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Old May 13 2009, 10:11 PM   #2
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

Don't forget, there were several Romulans who sided with Shinzon in order to trigger the coup, who undoubtedly had something to do with the ship's construction. Romulan know-how, Reman workmanship and possibly materials, plus the whole North Korea analogy does make it believable this ship was built with very few people knowing about it.

Leaving it in the hands of the Remans was a dumb idea though.
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Old May 13 2009, 10:18 PM   #3
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

The Scimitar was a formless, shapeless mess of a design.
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Old May 13 2009, 10:20 PM   #4
Myasishchev
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

Remus was apparently the site of Romulus' major shipyard; it may have been in drydock when the Remans launched their revolt, which, when the Remans got ahold of a new warbird and a thalaron device, turned into a coup. It's pretty easy to steal a starship from Starfleet, maybe the Romulans aren't much better at protecting their property.

Praetor Neral (or whoever?) was pretty unconcerned, though, which suggests he either didn't know about the warbird or didn't know about the thalaron device--perhaps the latter. Killing the continuing committee was a demonstration. And as long as the Scimitar was in orbit, the Romulans obeyed Shinzon out of fear. It only took about five seconds after he left for Donatra to turn on him.

Edit: and the Scimitar was no D'Deredix, it's true, but I actually liked the ship. The Valdore-type, on the other hand... they're all right, but an aesthetic step down from the D'D, not a step sideways. Their wings are still attractive, but the command hull is much uglier than the D'D's graceful lines.

And I wonder what the real name of the ship was, since Scimitar isn't exactly Romulan--S'harien, perhaps?
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Old May 13 2009, 10:31 PM   #5
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

Just watching the movie, the believability (lack thereof, rather) of the Remans building this absolutely hax monster is one of the film's biggest faults I think. I don't like the look of it, and unless there's something in III, V, or XI that out does it, it's probably the most ridiculously broken starship in Star Trek. In an "oh, come on." kind of way.
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Old May 13 2009, 11:48 PM   #6
cwl
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

well yes the look of it reminds me of major dominion/breen influences on the design. but it sucks.
no doubt romulans collaborated with remans- but such an advanced & powerful ship built in secret that is way beyond what the Romulans & starfleet have!
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Old May 14 2009, 12:52 AM   #7
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

cwl wrote: View Post
but anyone thing this ship was a little contrived?
"A little"? Try extremely.

RyuRoots wrote: View Post
Just watching the movie, the believability (lack thereof, rather) of the Remans building this absolutely hax monster is one of the film's biggest faults I think. I don't like the look of it, and unless there's something in III, V, or XI that out does it, it's probably the most ridiculously broken starship in Star Trek. In an "oh, come on." kind of way.
III? No.
V? No.
XI... There's a heavily armed mining ship capable of destroying entire fleets and even a planet, so yes.
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Old May 14 2009, 01:33 AM   #8
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

GodBen wrote: View Post
cwl wrote: View Post
but anyone thing this ship was a little contrived?
"A little"? Try extremely.

RyuRoots wrote: View Post
Just watching the movie, the believability (lack thereof, rather) of the Remans building this absolutely hax monster is one of the film's biggest faults I think. I don't like the look of it, and unless there's something in III, V, or XI that out does it, it's probably the most ridiculously broken starship in Star Trek. In an "oh, come on." kind of way.
III? No.
V? No.
XI... There's a heavily armed mining ship capable of destroying entire fleets and even a planet, so yes.
Actually,the Narada makes sense.When Romulus got wasted by the supernova,the Narada rendevoued with a cloaked Romulan space station,whose commander sympathized with Neros quest for blood and dumped all their experimental hardware (based on captured Borg tech) into the Narada.

Its in the comic books,so read 'Countdown' when you grab a second,but the Narada isn't contrived at all,unlike the idea of a secret Thalaron-weapon being built into an all-new and untested ship and weapons system by a slave race with neither resources or ability to carry it out-or,a top-secret Romulan science project that was seized by a group of underclass citizens,in a scenario that would be similar to street hoodlums stealing a USAF B-2 stealth nuclear bomber.
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Old May 14 2009, 05:53 AM   #9
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

The Narada was just a mining ship... so it's ability to drill makes perfect sense. It was only the addition of the red matter that made it possible to destroy a planet - By itself the Narada could not do it. And it probably was only able to overwhelm Federation and Klingon forces due to 120(?) year more advanced technology, and its sheer size.

I personally think the Countdown stuff is just at a similar level as your typical fan-wank (and just as poorly written as a fan-wank) - IMO. The Borg tech backstory is better forgotten.

Back on topic... Yes the Reman warbird in Nemesis did make very little sense.
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Old May 14 2009, 11:12 AM   #10
Timo
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

...a secret Warbird built by a slave-race on a secret base in the Romulan Empire.
Aren't we missing something obvious here?

If the Romulan Star Empire wants to build a secret warbird, isn't it completely natural to assume that Reman slaves will build it in a secret base? I mean, what are the alternatives?

- That Romulans would build it? Makes no sense. Work is for slaves.
- That it would be built in the open? Makes less sense. Romulans value their secrecy a lot. They'd keep secrets from foreigners, but also from their own people they didn't completely trust. Remember how the IJN built the battleship Yamato? They erected a giant canvas wall around the dockyard so that the construction site could not be seen from the city!

Frankly, I don't see what is so unbelievable about all this. The Romulans could have proceeded in no other way in getting the Scimitar built.

Now, one might wonder that the ship was secret from the Romulans. But this is not stated in the movie at all. Obviously, Romulans keep a lot of secrets from each other. But the existence of the Scimitar, or the presence of the thalaron weapon aboard her, were never stated or implied to have been secret from the Romulans. Certainly the military knew about those. The Senate might have known as well: it never survived to tell, one way or another.

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Old May 14 2009, 01:16 PM   #11
TheGodBen
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

I should not have to read any supplemental material in order to understand the movie, and in the movie Nero's ship came across as way too powerful for a mining ship. Can you imagine a modern mining ship being able to destroy entire fleets of warships from WWI? Can you imagine a modern mining ship surviving an explosive collision with a century old warship?

The scimitar could also be explained away with supplemental material, but even if it was then the vessel would still come across as extremely contrived within the context of the movie, just like the Narada.
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Old May 14 2009, 01:43 PM   #12
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

Timo wrote: View Post
...a secret Warbird built by a slave-race on a secret base in the Romulan Empire.
Aren't we missing something obvious here?

If the Romulan Star Empire wants to build a secret warbird, isn't it completely natural to assume that Reman slaves will build it in a secret base? I mean, what are the alternatives?

- That Romulans would build it? Makes no sense. Work is for slaves.
- That it would be built in the open? Makes less sense. Romulans value their secrecy a lot. They'd keep secrets from foreigners, but also from their own people they didn't completely trust. Remember how the IJN built the battleship Yamato? They erected a giant canvas wall around the dockyard so that the construction site could not be seen from the city!

Frankly, I don't see what is so unbelievable about all this. The Romulans could have proceeded in no other way in getting the Scimitar built.

Now, one might wonder that the ship was secret from the Romulans. But this is not stated in the movie at all. Obviously, Romulans keep a lot of secrets from each other. But the existence of the Scimitar, or the presence of the thalaron weapon aboard her, were never stated or implied to have been secret from the Romulans. Certainly the military knew about those. The Senate might have known as well: it never survived to tell, one way or another.

Timo Saloniemi
The implausible part is not the construction of the Schimitar,but the ownership of it by the Remans.If the vessel was built by Romulans ,they'd have armed sentrys guarding the ship 24-7.This presupposes that Shinzon was in error when he tells Picard that he had the Schimitar built at a secret base.

Taking Shinzon at his word would mean that a slave underclass somehow acquired the time,material,weaponry,engineering skill,and use of a shipyard construction facility to build a tested and 100% functional superweapon in the Romulans back yard *without their knowledge*!That's like a group of Best Buy employees building a functional nuclear missle silo in Washington DC without the US government knowing anything.What kind of sorry excuse for internal security existed in Romulan space for the Remans to have built a ship that size without ANYONE knowing it?
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Old May 14 2009, 02:00 PM   #13
Timo
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

I should not have to read any supplemental material in order to understand the movie, and in the movie Nero's ship came across as way too powerful for a mining ship. Can you imagine a modern mining ship being able to destroy entire fleets of warships from WWI?
Well, can you imagine an oil drilling rig doing the same? She could do that with her bulk alone (plenty of 6 in guns could be mounted there for the classic WWI naval stratagem of defeating quality with quantity), but the plot of the movie involved said drilling rig being equipped with a-bombs intended for some serious seismic work. Bye bye, WWI warfleet...

That a mining rig would be far larger and sturdier than a warship sounds natural to the 21st century audience, since we know that mining is done with those floating steel islands while wars are fought by smallish aluminum ships. That the mining rig would have destructive potential... That's where this red matter thing comes in. And if tiny droplets of it can destroy planets and were intended to destroy stars, then why not starfleets?

The implausible part is not the construction of the Schimitar,but the ownership of it by the Remans.If the vessel was built by Romulans ,they'd have armed sentrys guarding the ship 24-7.
Ol' Spartacus captured a Roman warship, too. The very definition of a slave rebellion is that the slaves overpower their guards somehow. If they do that to their immediate jailers, they can do that to other sets of guards as well. And the guards on the Scimitar would probably be the same thing as Shinzon's jailers anyway, given that Reman slaves were working on the ship.

This presupposes that Shinzon was in error when he tells Picard that he had the Scimitar built at a secret base.
Why? He was the leader of slaves. Surely it would be plausible for him to have led the construction effort. Under Romulan command, of course, but that's neither here nor there.

Again, nowhere in the movie is it mentioned or even implied that the Scimitar would have been kept secret from everybody except the Remans. A slightly older script version found at TrekCore makes it more explicit that the Romulan military knew of the ship and her capabilities, but even the aired version makes it perfectly possible to think of this as a Romulan secret project, rather than something done against Romulan wishes.

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Old May 14 2009, 02:48 PM   #14
cwl
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

remember folks the Scimitar- is a Reman Warbird.

in no way does the Scimitar resemble Romulan design!

the ship was built in secret at a secret base & used to launch a coup d'etat.

the ship's cloak is the most advanced ever seen
the ship's thaloran weapon is a planet killer
the ship has dual-shielding
the ship can outrun a Sovereign-class starship
the ship eliminated 2 Romulan Warbirds with ease & presumably the Enterprise survived so long only because Shinzon wanted Picard alive
the ship is relatively manouverable for its size

the ships main weakness is its thin-skin.

of the 2 known warbird designs in the 24th century- the D'deridex & Valdore - the Scimitar bares no resemblance & is a lot more advanced.
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Old May 14 2009, 03:52 PM   #15
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Re: Reman Warbird Scimitar

cwl wrote: View Post
remember folks the Scimitar- is a Reman Warbird.

in no way does the Scimitar resemble Romulan design!

the ship was built in secret at a secret base & used to launch a coup d'etat.

the ship's cloak is the most advanced ever seen
the ship's thaloran weapon is a planet killer
the ship has dual-shielding
the ship can outrun a Sovereign-class starship
the ship eliminated 2 Romulan Warbirds with ease & presumably the Enterprise survived so long only because Shinzon wanted Picard alive
the ship is relatively manouverable for its size

the ships main weakness is its thin-skin.

of the 2 known warbird designs in the 24th century- the D'deridex & Valdore - the Scimitar bares no resemblance & is a lot more advanced.
That's exactly the problem.Starships require raw materials and detailed engineering plus testing to make sure it doesn't blow up at warp from a software bug.It took years for Starfleet to test and produce the Soverign class design.I'd assume likewise for the Romulan D'Deridex and Mogai/Valdore class.As well,both ships were constructed and tested by established governments with acess to resources and testing.

But the Remans-a slave race who would have to embezzle and/or steal resources and technology ,who don't have their own government or acess to off-world mining resources-build,construct,test,and deploy a weapons system that beats all the ships above in every category,in faster timeframes,*without anyone knowing about it,including the Romulans themselves*.It would realistically take years to build a ship as massive and complicated as the Schimitar,and even the most incompetent materials manager in Romulus would notice several million metric tons of raw metal dissapearing for no reason.

And according to Shinzon,he built the Scimitar at a 'secret base',so we can rule out a Reman uprising as the reason the ship was taken.Bottom line,the Scimitars existence doesn't make sense without resorting to logical pretzels.
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