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Old July 8 2009, 01:08 PM   #121
DiamondJoe
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

"Sorry, you're playing "revisionist" in order to make your PERSONAL PREFERENCE take precedence over some other items...

That's perfectly fine... but it's NOT fine to insist that everyone else accept that the choice you've personally made is the one that they have to accept as well"

Whoah, let's back up and sip a brew, here, ok? I am not playing revisionist, nor have I at any point "insisted" that my design preference is one everyone else absolutely has to accept. What do you think I am, some kind of Trek-design Stalin? Nay. I, like everyone here, enjoy speculating on this fictitious universe and the rather wonderful designs featured within. I have simply pointed out that on-screen evidence suggests that the layout featured here is unfeasible. I am not screaming for you all to adhere to my opinion, nor am I demanding that CTM removes his layout and starts again with my preference. I have considered my opinion and put it forward using relevant examples, logic and arguments, but it remains simply an opinion - not an insistence that everyone must also hold it. If there is no room for any feedback or opinions on this forum which deviate from "wow, amazing" etc then I have perhaps misjudged the mood, as it were. CTM's response is perfectly acceptable and valid as far as I'm concerned.
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Old July 8 2009, 01:45 PM   #122
CTM
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Gentlemen, do I need to add a War Room to the Enterprise?
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Old July 8 2009, 01:54 PM   #123
Birdog
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

CTM wrote: View Post
Gentlemen, do I need to add a War Room to the Enterprise?

Yes please.
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Old July 8 2009, 02:14 PM   #124
Cary L. Brown
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

DiamondJoe wrote: View Post
Whoah, let's back up and sip a brew, here, ok? I am not playing revisionist, nor have I at any point "insisted" that my design preference is one everyone else absolutely has to accept. What do you think I am, some kind of Trek-design Stalin? Nay. I, like everyone here, enjoy speculating on this fictitious universe and the rather wonderful designs featured within. I have simply pointed out that on-screen evidence suggests that the layout featured here is unfeasible. I am not screaming for you all to adhere to my opinion, nor am I demanding that CTM removes his layout and starts again with my preference. I have considered my opinion and put it forward using relevant examples, logic and arguments, but it remains simply an opinion - not an insistence that everyone must also hold it. If there is no room for any feedback or opinions on this forum which deviate from "wow, amazing" etc then I have perhaps misjudged the mood, as it were. CTM's response is perfectly acceptable and valid as far as I'm concerned.
I thought I was pretty clear... we're ALL playing revisionist. You have no choice when there is conflicting evidence. We have to choose what parts we retain as "pure," what parts we reject entirely, and what parts we "compromise" on.

My comment is based upon the fact that you made your case, CTM responded to it... and you kept making it, over and over. You made your point, and it was time to let it go. That's all.
CTM wrote: View Post
Gentlemen, do I need to add a War Room to the Enterprise?
I recommend putting the war room at the end of the corridor in front of engineering...

Granted, since that puts it in vacuum, the battles will be very, very quiet.
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Old July 8 2009, 02:23 PM   #125
B.J.
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

CTM wrote: View Post
Gentlemen, do I need to add a War Room to the Enterprise?
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"
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Old July 8 2009, 03:05 PM   #126
Saquist
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Canon is truely meaningless on this project.
It's as Cary L Brown says....it's about DESIGN INTENT.

The deflection crystal, the Core, the PTS Conduits and the best method to link them is the most impoart aspect of the design. Both the impulse and warp engines utilize heavy Hydrogen to produce power. The core is just a high speed particle accelerator that sends matter crashing into each other via crystal mediator. Hydrogen at the top antimatter hydrogen accelerated from the bottom.

While Star Fleet doesn't seem to do merged power systems anymore it makes a bit of sense here and I truely believe that was the design intent.
If you can make the studio's subjective slight of hand on sets work on the 3D design...OF COURSE...go for it but the studio wasn't concerned with design intent. They didn't want to create multiple levels if it cost more, if they could avoid it. They don't follow the Rules.

As designers, drafter, and engineers we follow ANSI and ISO standards.
Design Intent makes sense.
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Old July 8 2009, 04:44 PM   #127
DiamondJoe
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

"You have no choice when there is conflicting evidence. We have to choose what parts we retain as "pure," what parts we reject entirely..."

Quite so. My argument simply concerned which parts were rejected entirely and whether or not we can legitimately reject on-screen canon. Opinion will, it seems, remain divided. And a war room will not be necessary. Just wear your Gorn costume and meet me at Vasquez Rocks

Saquist - Canon should not be "meaningless" in a project such as this, and I think CTM would acknowledge this. It is one of the primary sources drawn upon, in concert with the design intent (although my stance is still that intent need not be so slavishly adhered to).

Also, I'm not sure that your description of the intermix operation on the refit Enterprise is entirely accurate. On the Enterprise D, it is the case that deuterium and anti-deuterium (I think?) are injected at opposite ends of the chamber and regulated by the central dilithium crystal, from which the plasma stream emanates. But the refit chamber doesn't follow this method. There are two shafts, and no central crystal to regulate the reaction. Indeed, the actual crystal appears to be located in a seperate room, well away from the shafts - the reactor room where Spock dies. Evidence that this may be a crystal chamber can also be found in Voyage Home when Scotty peers at an identical chamber on the Bird of Prey and comments that the crystals are burned out.

Another theory I've read which may explain the workings of the refit shafts is that the shafts themselves are uniformly coated or treated in some way with dilithium, so that the matter & antimatter is simultanously released into the shafts where it is instantly converted into plasma energy. Further evidence for this is suggested by the simple "branching" of the horizontal shaft to the pylons. And now that I think about it, I wonder why a horizontal shaft is required at all? Couldn't the vertical shaft perform this function and have power conduits leading towards the pylons rather than an entire shaft?
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Old July 8 2009, 11:51 PM   #128
Crazy Eddie
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Saquist wrote: View Post
Canon is truely meaningless on this project.
It's as Cary L Brown says....it's about DESIGN INTENT.

The deflection crystal, the Core, the PTS Conduits and the best method to link them is the most impoart aspect of the design. Both the impulse and warp engines utilize heavy Hydrogen to produce power. The core is just a high speed particle accelerator that sends matter crashing into each other via crystal mediator. Hydrogen at the top antimatter hydrogen accelerated from the bottom.

While Star Fleet doesn't seem to do merged power systems anymore it makes a bit of sense here and I truely believe that was the design intent.
If you can make the studio's subjective slight of hand on sets work on the 3D design...OF COURSE...go for it but the studio wasn't concerned with design intent. They didn't want to create multiple levels if it cost more, if they could avoid it. They don't follow the Rules.

As designers, drafter, and engineers we follow ANSI and ISO standards.
Design Intent makes sense.
Well, when speaking of design intent, the intermix chamber of the TMP ship was just a power transfer conduit, not a "Warp core" in the TNG sense. The antimatter is stored at the bottom of the shaft, as is the reactor; the PRODUCT of reacting matter and antimatter is pumped through the shaft to where it needs to go. The impulse engines only need a little, so the intermix isn't very active then, but when you transfer power to the warp engines, it becomes a blazing inferno.
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Old July 9 2009, 01:10 AM   #129
Data Holmes
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

DiamondJoe wrote: View Post
Saquist

I disagree that the deck plans should be considered totally canon, and I think that what is seen on-screen should be. For one thing, none of the deck plans of the refit Enterprise that are floating around on the internet have ever been seen on-screen (unlike the plans for the Enterprise D or E, which are prominintly featured on various displays). They are simply suppositions made for fun. And yes, I'm aware that this is too (and I think its a hell of a job) but I don't see how you can get around the fact that there is a corridor that leads out of the engine room, which if the room is where you say it is, simply cannot exist. It has to be further back.

The guy in the bay does give a good idea of scale - thanks. I still feel that there has to be only one bay, though, and that as suggested the launch track splits into 2 tubes at the end. If you look at the end of the inspection in Trek 2, and the funeral scene, there is actually a fair amount of space in there - it doesn't seem particularly cramped.

Still - its all for fun and ultimately as you say there probably isn't a perfect solution. The one I would personally go with would be something like the one below, which someone else has already suggested. This way you fit engineering in nicely, the corridor matches and you free up space in the torpedo bay. The only slight issue, as far as I can see, would be that the bottom of the intermix chamber sits over the arboretum. However who says there actually is an arboretum there? We've never seen it and the windows glow blue. Wouldn't they be green? And isn't it slightly odd to have a garden deep in the engineering section of a ship where space is at a premium?

The same guy who did that back in the day did a complementary plan for the photorp deck...
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Old July 9 2009, 08:56 AM   #130
DiamondJoe
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

I saw that schematic - looks good, but the obvious problem is that for that to fit then the whole ship has to be siginificantly upscaled.
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Old July 9 2009, 01:06 PM   #131
Saquist
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Location: Starbase Houston
Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

DiamondJoe wrote: View Post
"You have no choice when there is conflicting evidence. We have to choose what parts we retain as "pure," what parts we reject entirely..." Saquist - Canon should not be "meaningless" in a project such as this, and I think CTM would acknowledge this. It is one of the primary sources drawn upon, in concert with the design intent (although my stance is still that intent need not be so slavishly adhered to).
I can't emphasize enough that it all revolves around design and the real physical limits of the hull. The sets were not contructed to any other reason but ergonomics to rely on them above design principle makes this more art that planning.

CAD is computer Aided Drafting and drafting has rules, rules that even Trek designers have recognized which is that design must be function first over all.




Also, I'm not sure that your description of the intermix operation on the refit Enterprise is entirely accurate. On the Enterprise D, it is the case that deuterium and anti-deuterium (I think?) are injected at opposite ends of the chamber and regulated by the central dilithium crystal, from which the plasma stream emanates. But the refit chamber doesn't follow this method. There are two shafts, and no central crystal to regulate the reaction. Indeed, the actual crystal appears to be located in a seperate room, well away from the shafts - the reactor room where Spock dies. Evidence that this may be a crystal chamber can also be found in Voyage Home when Scotty peers at an identical chamber on the Bird of Prey and comments that the crystals are burned out.
You see this is the perfect example of what I speak.
The Intermix chamber was never pointed out in the Movie. The Central dilithium crystal chamber was never identified on film. YET we know that the crystals mediate the reaction of matter and anti-matter so why would the camber be in another room?

The most logical explanation is the the room Spock was in was a control room and likely a radiation purge room.

Another theory I've read which may explain the workings of the refit shafts is that the shafts themselves are uniformly coated or treated in some way with dilithium, so that the matter & antimatter is simultanously released into the shafts where it is instantly converted into plasma energy. [/QUOTE]

I don't know about that. It wouldn't fit the description of a supercolider.
matter and antimatter have different charges and spins. In order form them to colide they must be accelerated at each other with significant force.

newtype_alpha;3168611. wrote:



Well, when speaking of design intent, the intermix chamber of the TMP ship was just a power transfer conduit, not a "Warp core" in the TNG sense. The antimatter is stored at the bottom of the shaft, as is the reactor; the PRODUCT of reacting matter and antimatter is pumped through the shaft to where it needs to go. The impulse engines only need a little, so the intermix isn't very active then, but when you transfer power to the warp engines, it becomes a blazing inferno.


http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...ns-sheet-4.jpg

According to this the Core did proceed down to an antimatter souce.
Produced by Paramount from this illistrator.
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Old July 9 2009, 02:47 PM   #132
Saquist
Commodore
 
Location: Starbase Houston
Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

CTM wrote: View Post
Another day's work added. I actually started working on filling out the lower decks of the primary hull - and have the basic framework for the primary hull built (but didn't render it). I have not built (at least as yet) a mechanism to separate the primary and secondary hulls. As I finish the neck interface, I will look at how to do that.

Four pictures tonight, wireframes and renders of the insie and outside of decks H-M.




CTM,

That neck looks pretty ridgid at that transission between the nape at the saucer to the torp tube.

I could use a loft to drape one smooth hull around all those cross-sections (using 2007) and then give it back to you in ACAD light so you could paste into your drawing.
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Old July 9 2009, 03:22 PM   #133
DiamondJoe
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

"The intermix chamber was never pointed out in the movie".

Sorry, I don't get your point here. Are you saying that because no character pointed at the two big glowing shafts located across several decks and monitored from main engineering and said "that's the intermix chamber, you know", that we don't know for sure if it is the intermix chamber? I think that's a little silly.

The central crystal chamber was never identified, though - that's correct. We don't know exactly where the crystals were located in the refit ship, or exactly what purpose that reactor room served. However it is logical to infer that the room does house the crystals when we see the similar piece of equipment in The Voyage Home.

"YET we know that the crystals mediate the reaction of matter and anti-matter so why would the chamber be in another room?"

Quite. It's another design element introduced in the second movie that doesn't really make any sense and was clearly added for the narrative need to provide Spock with a "sealed" room in which to venture to fix the warp drive and succumb to radiation poisoning. My theory is that perhaps matter and anti-matter are first introduced to the Crystals in the reactor room and the resultant plasma is siphoned away into the intermix chamber where it is further 'processed' in some way. But it is admittedly a flimsy theory based on a supposition, caused by a frankly baffling design detail.

The schematic you've provided there actually raises more questions (and is, I believe, not produced by official sources but by a fan). For one thing, although the intermix shaft connects with the deflection crystal, it also seems to be bypassed by what looks like another horizontal intermix shaft, albeit a short one. Which raises the question - if there is a second horizontal shaft which connects directly to the impulse engines, why is there a need for the deflection crystal at all? It's also interesting to note that there is no area for deuterium storage specified - unless the area at the bottom of the vertical shaft contains both matter and anti-matter, which would be acceptable as this M/ARA system does not appear to operate using the "injected at opposite ends" method (hence the lack of a centrally-positioned crystal in the shaft itself).
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Old July 9 2009, 05:08 PM   #134
Saquist
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Location: Starbase Houston
Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

DiamondJoe;3170453. wrote:
Sorry, I don't get your point here. Are you saying that because no character pointed at the two big glowing shafts located across several decks and monitored from main engineering and said "that's the intermix chamber, you know", that we don't know for sure if it is the intermix chamber? I think that's a little silly.

The intermix chamber is where the crystals are.



The central crystal chamber was never identified, though - that's correct. We don't know exactly where the crystals were located in the refit ship, or exactly what purpose that reactor room served. However it is logical to infer that the room does house the crystals when we see the similar piece of equipment in The Voyage Home.
You're saying it's logical to compare Klingon technology and design and Star Fleet technology and design as being synonomous?

"YET we know that the crystals mediate the reaction of matter and anti-matter so why would the chamber be in another room?"

Quite. It's another design element introduced in the second movie that doesn't really make any sense and was clearly added for the narrative need to provide Spock with a "sealed" room in which to venture to fix the warp drive and succumb to radiation poisoning. My theory is that perhaps matter and anti-matter are first introduced to the Crystals in the reactor room and the resultant plasma is siphoned away into the intermix chamber where it is further 'processed' in some way. But it is admittedly a flimsy theory based on a supposition, caused by a frankly baffling design detail.
The only problem with the room is if one insist that is where the crystals were housed for a subatomic reaction. Looks like a plasma valve to me.

The schematic you've provided there actually raises more questions (and is, I believe, not produced by official sources but by a fan). For one thing, although the intermix shaft connects with the deflection crystal, it also seems to be bypassed by what looks like another horizontal intermix shaft, albeit a short one. Which raises the question - if there is a second horizontal shaft which connects directly to the impulse engines, why is there a need for the deflection crystal at all? It's also interesting to note that there is no area for deuterium storage specified - unless the area at the bottom of the vertical shaft contains both matter and anti-matter, which would be acceptable as this M/ARA system does not appear to operate using the "injected at opposite ends" method (hence the lack of a centrally-positioned crystal in the shaft itself).
This was a buyable package under paramount for The Undiscovered Country by [SIZE=1]David Schmidt for the 25th ann. addition.U[/SIZE]

It was copyrighted therefore officially endorsed but of course not official canon.

The Impulse Deflection Crystal:
Like Warp Drive the Impulse Engines are a type of field propulsion system. The Fusion reactor ignites the matter and the energy from that reaction is then colaspsed into spatial disturbance that radiates out from the reactor. Only certain materials react with the impulse wave. Impulse Drive coils can be used to repel or to be attracted to the distortion wave

Residual plasma is flushed to the rear in the Impulse manifold on the exterior of the ship.

The Deflection Crystal cancels out residual wave activity on the opposite side of the drive coils.

The Additional Conduit routed to the impulse drive coils and manifold as seen in the illistration allows the coils to be powered by warp plasma or for the core to flushed incase the core is scrammed mid-reaction
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Old July 9 2009, 05:56 PM   #135
Cary L. Brown
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Location: Austin, Texas
Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Gentlemen...

What we are facing here is a "thread derailment." If you want to discuss the concept of the TMP reactor core, and whether it works one way or another way... there is a forum for that, and you can go there and create a new thread to discuss this to your hearts' content.

This thread is here for CTM to post his work, and for us to watch his work and, where possible and appropriate, to comment on his work (primarily in the form of "constructive criticism).

Anything else is inappropriate for this thread.

Agreed?
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