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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old May 13 2009, 12:55 AM   #31
Strider
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Re: the problem with canon

gypsyaly wrote: View Post
I don't see cannon so much as precise details in timeline, as I do in the fact that Star Trek was not just some general science fiction show. What I see as "cannon" is the formula - action and adventure revolving around a premise, a moral theme; I think what has always made startrek stand apart is that it picks a tough issue to discuss. (Star Trek 6, the Cold War, etc.)
oh it's really not that complicated. just think of a cannon as being a really big gun!
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Old May 13 2009, 01:05 AM   #32
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Re: the problem with canon

For me, the problem with canon is that way too many people take it way too seriously. Canon is about the last thing I am concerned about when I try to enjoy a new episode or movie. Granted, it serves the function of letting all incarnations of Star Trek feel like they take place in the same fictional universe. But at the end of the day I care about more substantial things. What I can't stand is when people equate canon to continuity. What I outright hate is when people act like canon is somehow related to factual history. Also, for me, canon has nothing whatsoever to do with the look of characters or ships.
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Old May 13 2009, 02:54 PM   #33
AeroSquid
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Re: the problem with canon

*old Spock voice* Ahh; Canon, canon, canon. Bill Shatner is currently writing a Starfleet Academy series that bears little to no resemblence to any ST canon (Kirk and Spock entering the academy together after working as S.I. operatives.) Take a deep breath and think of it as another alternate reality. LOL.
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Old May 13 2009, 03:59 PM   #34
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Re: the problem with canon

The ideas that Star Trek fans apply to canon can be found in other aspects of life. Take Christianity for example. The Bible is filled with contradictory accounts of the same events and vastly different portrayals of the same god. The reason is, like TV, the texts were written by humans that make mistakes. So, humans use their intellects and imaginations to make square pegs fit into round holes and rationalize the contradictions away.

In religion we call this theology and apologetics. In Star Trek we call it canon. Both serve the same purpose in the human mind, to create order is a disordered world. You can't dismiss fans who hold canon close to their hearts simply because they do it with something like TV that everyone presumes to be frivilous. It is something that humans seem predisposed to do when presented with a complex idea system.
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Old May 13 2009, 10:26 PM   #35
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Re: the problem with canon

i think canon is important, it helps maintain a level of consistency. at the same time though, it can limit what stories can be explored. people do take it too seriously though because at the end of the day, as long as you enjoy watching the show it doesnt really matter if it sticks to the canon law perfectly (though you should not ignore canon all together).

mirror universes and time paradox'es are a useful way round canon anyway
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Old May 15 2009, 05:43 PM   #36
EliyahuQeoni
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Re: the problem with canon

azebelys wrote: View Post
i think canon is important, it helps maintain a level of consistency.
No, it doesn't. Canon has nothing to do with consistency. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is canonical, but is not consistent with the rest of the series about Kirk's middle initial. The word you're looking for is 'continuity.'
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Old May 15 2009, 08:35 PM   #37
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Re: the problem with canon

the problem with canon is people getting it muddled up with consistency and continuity.

consistency and continuity says that when you blow Vulcan up it should stay blown up. canon says it blew up.
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Old May 16 2009, 03:32 PM   #38
I am not Spock
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Re: the problem with canon

Canon: All the live action film and TV Trek productions, including the new JJ Abrams film. Nuff said.
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Old May 22 2010, 12:58 AM   #39
jefferiestubes8
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Does Canon Even Matter?

cwl wrote: View Post
some people just take canon waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously.
I came across this article today:

Does Canon Even Matter?
17 May 2010
And then you take the novels and comic books into account, and there’s even more canon to take into account. Unless, of course, none of that actually took place. Is anybody else as confused as I am? Good.
I would like to think that canon matters, even if it isn’t held in high regard by anybody but those of us that go that extra mile to learn more about the series that we love. Extended works enrich the universes of our heroes, and add depth by adding new characters and worlds to explore, while further developing the characters we are already invested in. And keeping to some sort of continuity helps keep the stories straight without constantly contradicting everything we’ve already seen and read, making for a more pleasurable time spent enjoying those adventures.
There's some stuff about Star Trek but not very interesting as it's been discussed on TrekBBS before.

A related TrekBBS older thread:
A Canon Discussion
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Old May 22 2010, 01:07 AM   #40
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Re: the problem with canon

captcalhoun wrote: View Post

consistency and continuity says that when you blow Vulcan up it should stay blown up. canon says it blew up.
So could you say it was blown up by a canon cannon?

Are cannons in Trek canon?
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Old May 22 2010, 02:37 AM   #41
Luther Sloan
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Re: the problem with canon

One of my favorite episodes is "Far Beyond the Stars". This clearly tells us that nothing is really real, anyways.

However, that said. On the other hand: that doesn't mean you can't bring out the wizard "Cough* sorry, I mean Q or local temporal anomaly card to explain the stupidity.

I mean, why do I bother to make sense of something that isn't real to begin with? Well, then why bother to believe in warp cores, or transporters, or vulcan love slave holo-suite programs, or TR-116 rifles, or jumja sticks?

Sure, a lot of you may not demand perfection in your fiction like me. And I do realize that Star Trek is riddled with flaws. And they are in fact... just that... flaws. But that doesn't mean a person can't push their imagination a little (and get those brain cells pumping as fun a little excersize) and give a rationalize explanation to explain those flaws as if they were in fact a part of the universe of Star Trek.

Oh, and yes. Any crazy rationalization on my part to explain the stupidity or flaws within the series is just fanon on my part. I do get it. I just find it funny that it bothers other people that I would come up with my own personal rational explanations within the Trek-verse. I mean, you don't have to believe what I say. You can be content to continue on in thinking the way that you do. I am not going to stand in your way. If you want to take the series for what it is and just ignore the flaws or just realize it is fictional goofs... then fine. By all means feel free to think that way.

But canonistas like myself should not be burned at the stake because we like to explain the possibility of how Chakotay might want to eat a steak in one episode even though it is was clearly shown to us (time and again) that he is a vegetarian.

Last edited by Luther Sloan; May 22 2010 at 05:36 AM.
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Old May 22 2010, 02:55 AM   #42
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Re: the problem with canon

Yeah, the problem with canon is that it's often confused with continuity. Things don't have to be in the same continuity to be considered canon, IMO.

Personally, I think the only time continuity is a problem is when there's a desire to make some changes within that continuity. Otherwise, I think some of the best Trek stories have come out of Trek's continuity--TWOK, "Relics," "Trials and Tribble-ations," "In A Mirror Darkly"--just to name a few...
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Old May 22 2010, 04:22 AM   #43
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Re: the problem with canon

The only canon in Star Trek is the Phase Canon mounted to the bottom of the Enterprise (Archer's).
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Old May 22 2010, 06:54 PM   #44
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Re: So, just what IS canon?

foxmulder710 wrote: View Post
But seriously, haven't fans of Trek had to revise "canon" through the years? Didn't people around 1987 have to accept Picard as the new Enterprise captain and Archer as the Enterprise NX-01 captain-before-Kirk?
That would be more of an addition to canon than an revision.

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
Canon: All the live action film and TV Trek productions, including the new JJ Abrams film. Nuff said.
Yes this. Pieces of art are canon like Yesteryear, Best of Both Worlds, Balance of Terror, right along side utter shit like The Children Shall Lead, ST Eleven and Counterclock Incident .

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Old May 22 2010, 07:07 PM   #45
Greg Cox
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Re: the problem with canon

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Yeah, the problem with canon is that it's often confused with continuity. Things don't have to be in the same continuity to be considered canon, IMO.

...

There's also the problem that people sometimes confuse "canon" with "quality."

As in "That episode sucked because it violated canon."

As opposed to "The episode sucked because the characterization was flat and the dialogue was boring." (Or whatever.)

Personally, I'd rather watch a good episode that fudges the canon than a mediocre episode that fits the continuity perfectly.
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