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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old May 17 2009, 07:12 PM   #121
Crazy Eddie
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
The idea of people giving up everything... to achieve a greater goal... that's far more noble than "saving our own skin."
Saving our own skins...

- Immunity Syndrome
- The Doomsday Machine
- The Alternative Factor
- The Corbomite Maneuver
- Arena
- The Deadly Years
- The Enterprise Incident

The idea of saving YOUR ENEMY in the process is more noble yet.
- The Corbomite Manueuver
- For the World is Hollow
- The Apple
- A Piece of the Action

The idea that "blowing up the bad guy" is remotely inspirational is... well, it's not something we saw much of in classic Trek.
- The Doomsday Machine
- Balance of Terror
- Elaan of Troyus
- Babel
- Obsession
- Arena
- The Immunity Syndrome

Do you honestly think that the "mustache-twirling baddie (and let's be clear... though he may have a terrific UNTOLD backstory, as far as this movie is concerned, Nero is nothing more than that) try to destroy the universe, and having the hero save the universe by turning the bad guy's weapon on himself, is either (1) particularly original, (2) particularly inspirational, or (3) in keeping with the philosophies that made "classic Trek" stand out from other entertainment?
Does "Wrath of Khan" still top the list of most people's favorite trek movies?

Again... compare that to "Errand of Mercy." Compare it to "Arena." Compare it to "Balance of Terror" (Kirk defeated his enemy, sure, but the enemy in that show was far more sympathetic and far more noble... and Kirk DID try to save that enemy, after all). Compare it to ANY "classic trek" episode. Compare it to any of the really great "TNG" episodes. The message was always there... "We're able to be more than that. We can be better than that."
Well, the message is "We TRY to be more than that." Between Stile's bigotry and Kirk's homocidal fury in Arena, not to mention his blanket antipathy for the Organians for refusing to stand up to the Klingons, I really think this movie stacks up pretty well.

I find "baddie of the week tries to blow up the universe" pretty non-Trekkian, personally.
- The Alternative Factor
And though he didn't have a ship of is his own, I think Garth of Izar had a similar bent, if only because he was at least as crazy as Nero.
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Old May 17 2009, 10:16 PM   #122
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

Thank you, newtype_alpha.
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Old May 17 2009, 10:19 PM   #123
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

ST-One wrote: View Post
Thank you, newtype_alpha.
Yeah, thanks.

There are the folks that supposedly "praise this movie by running down the original," and then there's the time-honored fannish "dissing the current Trek incarnation by pretending the previous ones were better than they were."
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Old May 18 2009, 05:43 AM   #124
trevanian
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

ST-One wrote: View Post
BTW: 'Yesterday's Enterprise' only works because the story is told from the audience's perspective (represented by Guinan - Spock has that part in Star Trek).
And Guinan tells them what they need to do to set things right, not settle in with this loserverse.
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Old May 18 2009, 05:47 AM   #125
trevanian
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
The idea of people giving up everything... to achieve a greater goal... that's far more noble than "saving our own skin."
Saving our own skins...

- Immunity Syndrome
- The Doomsday Machine
You're fulla shit just on the very first couple. Spock is totally committed to the eventuality of losing his life to get them the info they need in the former (as is McCoy), as is Kirk in the latter.

And in both these instances, you're also talking about a force that is going to be killing alot more and pretty damn soon as well.

So I guess I should give thanks to you as well ... Thanks for forgetting the details of the past in order to pave over history so the current thing is somehow more palatable for your cronies.
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Old May 18 2009, 07:53 AM   #126
ST-One
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

trevanian wrote: View Post
ST-One wrote: View Post
BTW: 'Yesterday's Enterprise' only works because the story is told from the audience's perspective (represented by Guinan - Spock has that part in Star Trek).
And Guinan tells them what they need to do to set things right, not settle in with this loserverse.
Whatever.
You clearly don't want to understand that it would be just boring to watch Kirk, Spock and McCoy wander through the same universe once again just to end up where we have already seen them.
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Old May 18 2009, 07:56 AM   #127
ST-One
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

trevanian wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
The idea of people giving up everything... to achieve a greater goal... that's far more noble than "saving our own skin."
Saving our own skins...

- Immunity Syndrome
- The Doomsday Machine
You're fulla shit just on the very first couple. Spock is totally committed to the eventuality of losing his life to get them the info they need in the former (as is McCoy), as is Kirk in the latter.

And in both these instances, you're also talking about a force that is going to be killing alot more and pretty damn soon as well.

So I guess I should give thanks to you as well ... Thanks for forgetting the details of the past in order to pave over history so the current thing is somehow more palatable for your cronies.
Oh, get over yourself!

Are unable to grasp that nothing has been 'paved over'? OldTrek is still there, even in this movie.
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Old May 18 2009, 03:51 PM   #128
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

ST-One wrote: View Post
Are unable to grasp that nothing has been 'paved over'? OldTrek is still there, even in this movie.
Who cares? Every bit of it still exists on DVD, and the studio was never going to produce one more minute of that stuff under any circumstances.
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Old May 18 2009, 04:03 PM   #129
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

trevanian wrote: View Post

You're fulla shit just on the very first couple. Spock is totally committed to the eventuality of losing his life to get them the info they need in the former (as is McCoy), as is Kirk in the latter.
Knock off the personal stuff please. Next such comment I see, from anyone, will get a warning.
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Old May 18 2009, 04:27 PM   #130
Cary L. Brown
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

ST-One wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Saving our own skins...

- Immunity Syndrome
- The Doomsday Machine
You're fulla shit just on the very first couple. Spock is totally committed to the eventuality of losing his life to get them the info they need in the former (as is McCoy), as is Kirk in the latter.

And in both these instances, you're also talking about a force that is going to be killing alot more and pretty damn soon as well.

So I guess I should give thanks to you as well ... Thanks for forgetting the details of the past in order to pave over history so the current thing is somehow more palatable for your cronies.
Oh, get over yourself!

Are unable to grasp that nothing has been 'paved over'? OldTrek is still there, even in this movie.
According to Abrams and his team, yeah. According to most of how time travel worked in Trek, not-so-much. If you accept that, then (as I've pointed out before) "City on the Edge of Forever" was just a prank played on the folks on the surface to make them go retrieve McCoy, because his actions in the past couldn't possibly have hurt the Trek present. That would have just created a "reboot," but the original Trek universe would not have been "paved over" by the change in the timeline.

Same with "Yesterday's Enterprise." And on and on.

Kirk basically murdered his great love for no reason. Picard let the crew of the 1701-C go to their deaths for no reason. Because "all possible timelines exist simultaneously," right?

Guess those starfleet captains are just incompentent jerks, vicious bastards, whatever...

Yeah, we still have our DVD sets, just like Nimoy's Spock still has his memories of what things MIGHT have been like had they not been changed. Well, at least this would explain "Spock's Brain" pretty well... you'd expect Spock's memory of what "really happened" to be a bit fuzzy. And since the only place any of that "ever happened" is now in his memory, hey, it all works.
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Old May 18 2009, 05:18 PM   #131
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

The movie is a reboot. The world shown in the film is constructed in parallel to the world of the original TV series, and is respectful and careful enough with all of that to permit Nimoy's version of Spock to function credibly within it - but there is no point in the film or any sequence in the film, beginning with the first scenes involving the Kelvin prior to the "time-line divergence" - which is a perfect fit with the original. Trying to "explain" this film into oldTrek continuity is an even more hollow exercise than most of these rationalizations of variance generally are.
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Old May 18 2009, 06:02 PM   #132
ST-One
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Because "all possible timelines exist simultaneously," right?
That's pretty much what TNG told us, yes.
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Old May 18 2009, 06:04 PM   #133
Crazy Eddie
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

trevanian wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
The idea of people giving up everything... to achieve a greater goal... that's far more noble than "saving our own skin."
Saving our own skins...

- Immunity Syndrome
- The Doomsday Machine
You're fulla shit just on the very first couple. Spock is totally committed to the eventuality of losing his life to get them the info they need in the former (as is McCoy), as is Kirk in the latter.
Sorta like Spock trying to ram the Narada with futurespock's yellyship, eh? Or Pike turning himself over to Nero knowing exactly what happened to the LAST Captain who met him in person but in any case needing an excuse to drop Kirk and Sulu and Redshirt without Nero realizing it.

And in both these instances, you're also talking about a force that is going to be killing alot more and pretty damn soon as well.
True. I mean, it's not like the Narada is an immensely powerful alien space craft, equipped with a device that could destroy entire planets, on a mission to systemically obliterate every world in the Federation.
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Old May 18 2009, 11:33 PM   #134
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

This thread has a distinct lack of engine discussion.
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Old May 18 2009, 11:37 PM   #135
Cary L. Brown
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Re: OMFG MASSIVE SPOLIERS: NeoTrek Engine Musings

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Saving our own skins...

- Immunity Syndrome
- The Doomsday Machine
You're fulla shit just on the very first couple. Spock is totally committed to the eventuality of losing his life to get them the info they need in the former (as is McCoy), as is Kirk in the latter.
Sorta like Spock trying to ram the Narada with futurespock's yellyship, eh? Or Pike turning himself over to Nero knowing exactly what happened to the LAST Captain who met him in person but in any case needing an excuse to drop Kirk and Sulu and Redshirt without Nero realizing it.

And in both these instances, you're also talking about a force that is going to be killing alot more and pretty damn soon as well.
True. I mean, it's not like the Narada is an immensely powerful alien space craft, equipped with a device that could destroy entire planets, on a mission to systemically obliterate every world in the Federation.
Look the sarcastic tone isn't helping the conversation here... nor is the "yeah, you tell him" cheering. This is SUPPOSED to be a discussion, not a "team versus team brawl." And Newtype, we're often on the same side of issues, and from what I've seen, Trevanian and you tend to be on the same side of issues as well as often as not. So, can we please tone down the snideness, the "attack mode" stuff... and most of all the "yeah, you tell the @#$*, cause we hate him" bullshit? (That's not just targeted at you, obviously, that's all-around.)

What we're discussing here is a movie. It's not "just" a movie, because it's part of a work of fiction which has grown into an entire fictional "universe" over time, and it's one which has had a major impact on the real world... and, to one extent or another, on all of our lives.

Some folks love the new flick. Good for them. Some hate it. Good for them, too.

For someone to criticize the movie... only means that they don't like the movie, or some aspect of the movie. Not that they're attacking anyone who does like the movie. Criticizing the movie isn't PERSONAL. But responding to that sort of criticism by attacking those who are leveling that criticism is pretty low, no better than attacking those who may like it might be.

So let's get this straight. I, and most others, who have leveled any form of criticism at this movie have every right to do so, and nobody has any right to personally attack us for doing so. Other people, who really loved everything about the movie and say so gladly, have every right to do so, and nobody has any right to personally attack them for saying that, either.

Was this a terrible movie? Of course not. Was it a fantastic, flawless, perfect movie? Of course not. It has good points, and it has bad points. It is, ultimately, a "popcorn movie" on the same level as, say, Armageddon (the parallels are actually pretty significant, if you really compare the two). Enjoyable, but not "serious" entertainment, and with enough plot holes and characterization holes to drive a fleet of trucks through.

It's not PERFECT. Saying it's not perfect is not an "attack." Calling people who say it's not perfect names IS an "attack." (And similarly, calling people who love every aspect of it names would also be an attack, but I have yet to see that, personally.)

*******************

Okay, back to the topic.

I am critical of this movie. It fails on a number of levels for me.

One of those is in terms of art direction. Fortunately, most of the most egregious problems with art direction in this flick were barely noticeable past the "shakey-cam" work and quick-cutting (which is another problem... seeing this on IMax will undoubtedly cause people with weak stomachs some problems!)

Another area where it fails is the lack of any coherent attempt to "make it real" by applying real science and engineering principles (making it almost the exact opposite of TMP in this regard). Instead, "making it real" was accomplished by gratuitous set-dressing using real-world, contemporary products (see: barcode scanners, hospital beds, forklifts, brewery-as-engineering, etc). The "reality" of the design is both unbelievable on its face, and also ONLY on the face... "skin-deep" so to speak."

There are a few examples where this is not the case, of course... several "key" effects sequences (Vulcan's end, the female crewer on Kelvin who gets sucked outside, notably) which are examples of "good science" (I would have hated seeing another "planar explosion" ala Praxis or the "re-CGI'ed Death Star", and the "silence of space" was terrific). I attribute that to individual effects guys coming up with great sequences and executing them well, and selling their ideas to production folks who mainly wanted to see "kewl stuff." Could I be wrong? Maybe... but if it was the guys on top driving that, the other, egregiously wrong stuff wouldn't make any sense.

But all that can be forgiven, if there's a fantastic story behind it. The effects, the production design... as I've said many times, that's "set dressing."

My biggest complaint about this movie is that it was largely self-centered in nature.

Yes, Pike knew he was likely going to his death, but it's not like, had he refused, he would have been any less likely to die, is it? NuSpock, preparing to ram the Narada... is there any indication that he wasn't expecting to be rescued? Sure, there was a CHANCE he could be killed, but just a chance... and he had a PERSONAL justification for doing so ("Earth is my only home now.")

The only real "sacrifice was George Kirk. He could have ordered someone else to stay aboard. Of course, you'd think that the computer system would have a bit of redundancy (by the time you can't set a course and have it tracked, would you even be able to steer the ship???) But yeah, he actually gave his life, when he could have saved it. He was the ONLY "selfless" character in the movie.

But even given that... that's NOT related to what my original complaint was. My complaint was that I'm sick... sick and tired... of "Mustache-twirling villain with ultimate weapon tries to destroy the universe... and our heroes kill him."

That is TIRED... HACKNEYED... BORING.

Is there anyone who didn't think that Nero was gonna get his come-uppance at the end of this flick? Seriously?

Is there anyone who, not having read the comic "prequel" or having heard about the massive amount of deleted scenes, saw in Nero anything but the "mustache-twirling villain?" He was "the bad guy." Showing a picture of his wife wasn't enough to stir up anyone's sympathy for a genocidal mass murdering psychopath. Hell, he was even more one-dimensional than Shinzon was, as far as what made it on-screen is concerned.

I know, Newtype, that you really tried to counter my point with examples from TOS, but you really failed to do so. Because not one of those examples was one of "mustache-twirling villain with ultimate weapon tries to destroy the universe and our heroes kill him to save the day."

Not one. You drew PARTIAL parallels in a few cases, but those were only partial... straining to make them in a number of cases, too.

Trek wasn't about "kill the baddie of the week." It was BETTER THAN THAT. It strove to be better than that. Episodes like "Arena" or "Errand of Mercy" played with that idea, but turned it entirely around... and that was what made Star Trek so great.

My complaint about this movie, ultimately, comes down to that. This movie may have some of the trapping of Star Trek, some even being quite close to the original (Urban's McCoy, for example). Some of the trappings vary quite a bit, but that would be OK too... if the CENTRAL CORE of Trek was maintained.

The problem is that it hasn't been. That was the core of my argument... the one that you decided you had to try to discredit (though you really did fail to do so), and for which Dennis and ST-One "high-fived" you for "showing me what for" over.

This movie lacks the intelligent, philosophical core that made the best Star Trek episodes great. It is, ultimately, just another visually-pretty "popcorn movie."

If it had that, all the other stuff... even that god-awful Enterprise redesign... I could have accepted. But they lost the "soul" of Star Trek.

As I said before... a true, classic, philosophically-bent Trek ending would have showed our crew making the ultimate sacrifice, not just to save their own skin, or their own home, but to give up everything that they know, and maybe even their very existence, in order to save (1) yes, Earth, (2) Vulcan, (3) Romulus, and (4) anyone else who might've fallen victim to Nero's predations.

Have the Enterprise, under Kirk, engage Nero just long enough for "Spock Prime" to drop the "red matter bomb" into the Hobus star... preventing the future destruction of Romulus, and thus Nero ever having traveled back in time in the first place.

Cut to Earth. Starfleet Command. Kirk receives his promotion from Commander to Captain... it's unclear what is different... until his father pins his new rank on his uniform. Also in attendance is Christopher Pike, newly promoted to Fleet Captain, fit and robust (in the movie proper, I'd have had him killed or permanently disabled), meeting Jim Kirk for the first time.

Then cut forward to the 24th century, where Spock finally finds success in his efforts towards reunification, in large part due to his protege, a former miner and now newly elected "reformer" politician named Nero.

Honestly... c'mon now, guys, don't play the "we don't like you so we'll try to destroy any argument you make" game... do you REALLY think that the audience wouldn't have been affected (positively) by seeing Pike and George Kirk restored? That this would have somehow "confused" them?

That seeing the "mustache-twirling villain" not "defeated" but REDEEMED? Can you truly say that you think the audience would have found that disappointing?

That saving billions and billions of lives, on at least two worlds, wouldn't be worth the sacrifice?

I don't. I found the movie disappointing because it took the cheap and easy way out, every time. No challenging philosophical questions, no moral issues, just "kill the bad guy, save the universe."
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